1 OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
LABORORS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
2
3
4
IN RE: TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS
5 CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNSEL DOCKET NO.: 97-30T
6 _______________________________________________________
7
8
TESTIMONY OF: MICHAEL CORBITT
11 Ended: 2:00 p. m.
12 PLACE: Coleman Federal Correctional
14 REPORTED BY: ELIZABETH GOTCH
Florida at Large
17 Pages 1 - 166
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E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
Attorney at Law
1600 Market Street - Suite 2650
4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
6
DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK
Comey Boyd & Luskin, P. A.
8 1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N. W.
Suite 420 East
9 Washington, D. C. 20007-5243
10 Attorney for GEB Laborers' Union
11
12 Attorney at Law
Carmell Charone Widner Mathews & Moss, Ltd.
13 225 West Washington Street - Suite 1000
14
Attorney for the Chicago District
ROBERT A. SCLGALSKI
Inspector General's Office
19 TARA L. REINHART
21
RUSS WOOD
FBI Tampa, Florida
24 JOE GRIFFIN (Appeared by Telephone)
25 Inspector General's Office
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
3
2 Examination by Mr. Bostwick 4
Examination by Mr. Carmell 117
3 Examination Continued by Mr. Bostwick 161
Examination Continued by Mr. Carmell 163
4 Certificates of Reporter 165, 166
6 E X H I B I T S
7 Number Description Page
8 50 Memorandum from Larry Damron 29
164A Photograph 41
10 168B Interior Sketch of Counselor's Row 84
179 Private Security Pass to Pat Marcy's
11 Home in Hinsdale 100
20 Indictment 114
12 21 Verdict 114
14
15
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E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 The testimony of MICHAEL CORBITT taken
2 this 13th day of August, 1997, by Elizabeth Gotch,
3 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public for the
4 State of Florida at Large, at Coleman Federal
5 Correctional Institution, Bushnell, Sumter County,
6 Florida, beginning at the hour of 9:30 a. m.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: We'll now go on the
9 record and Mr. Bostwick will proceed.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: I'd ask that our witness be
11 sworn in. The witness' name is Michael Corbitt.
12 Whereupon:
14 having been first duly sworn on oath, was examined and
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: The record indicates
17 that the witness has been sworn. Mr. Corbitt will be
18 questioned this morning by Mr. Bostwick.
19 EXAMINATION
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Corbitt. Could you state
22 your name and spell your last name for the record.
23 A. My name is Michael Corbitt, C-O-R-B-I-T-T.
24 Q. What is your current age?
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. What is your present location here?
2 A. I'm in a federal correctional institute in
3 Florida.
4 Q. You're serving a prison sentence?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. What is the length of that sentence?
8 Q. Are you serving a sentence for more than one
9 conviction?
11 Q. Could you tell us about those convictions,
12 please, in order.
13 A. Tell you what they are or --
14 Q. That's correct, what they are.
15 A. Racketeering, racketeering conspiracy, and
16 obstructing justice.
17 Q. Let's take the first one now, racketeering.
18 Could you tell us when that conviction occurred and what
19 the general nature of it was?
20 A. The conviction was in 1988. I plead guilty to
21 several counts of racketeering, racketeering conspiracy,
22 extortion, bribery.
23 Q. Was this related in any way to organized crime
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. How about your second conviction?
2 A. My second conviction was for extortion and
3 racketeering conspiracy, and that was in 1989.
5 A. Obstruction of justice, and that was in 1991.
6 Q. What did that relate to?
7 A. My first racketeering case, I was charged with
8 altering documents that were submitted to the court.
9 Q. In the first two, racketeering and
10 racketeering conspiracy, could you give us a brief
11 subject matter of what that related to.
12 A. In the first racketeering case, I was charged
13 with soliciting bribes from chop shop operators,
14 soliciting bribes from mob figures to approve
15 bookmaking operations in my community and other bribery
17 My second conviction --
18 Q. Let me stop you right there. On the first
19 one, what position did you hold, if any, when you were
20 soliciting these chop shop offers and bribes?
21 A. I was the Chief of Police of the suburb of
22 Willow Springs, Illinois.
23 Q. Now go on to the second one, if you will, and
24 tell us a little bit about that conviction.
25 A. The second involved racketeering conspiracy in
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 which murder-for-hire was committed, other acts of
2 bribery and extortion involving attorneys and other mob
3 figures in Chicago.
4 Q. So the second conviction related to organized
7 Q. Now let me get this clear at the outset. The
8 GEB Attorney's office here for LIUNA, the
9 Laboror's Union, has offered to consider making both the
10 fact that you've testified here today and the substance
11 of that testimony available to your sentencing judge for
12 consideration. Is that correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Who will make the ultimate determination, if
15 any, as to whether that results in any different
16 disposition of your sentence.
17 A. That's correct. But it's almost irrelevant.
18 I've almost completed all of my time on my sentence so
19 it's really irrelevant.
20 Q. What's the time you're serving on your
21 sentence?
22 A. I'm serving the entire sentence, two-thirds of
23 an old law twenty-year sentence, which is
24 eleven years, nine months. In October, I complete ten
25 years of my sentence.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: The question is, does
2 the judge really have any jurisdiction to do anything
3 about it anyway at this point?
4 THE WITNESS: It's really irrelevant. It
5 doesn't make any difference anyway.
6 THE HEARING OFFICER: I don't know what he can
7 -- I mean, what he has to do. I think the judge loses
8 jurisdiction.
10 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Has the government made any
11 promises to you in exchange for your testimony here
12 today?
13 A. Absolutely not.
14 Q. Have you ever provided testimony for the
16 A. I've done several proffers on my case. Other
20 Q. Mr. Corbitt, you testified that you served on
21 the police force in the Chicago area. Could you give us
22 a brief overview of the time periods that you held
23 positions in the police department and the positions you
25 A. In 1965, I was appointed as a patrolman to the
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
9
1 Willow Springs Police Department, which is a small
2 suburb in Southwestern Cook County.
3 In 1967, I left and went to the
4 Village of Summit where I was a police officer for about
5 eighteen months, and then I returned to Willow Springs
7 In 1973, I became the chief of police and was
9 From 1981 to 1987, I carried a star from the
10 Cook County Sheriff's Department and was assigned to the
11 clerk of court as an investigator.
12 Q. 1987 is when --
13 A. In 1987, I was -- in 1986, I was indicted. In
14 1887, I was convicted on my first case.
15 Q. From your experience, Mr. Corbitt, how would
16 you define the term organized crime?
17 A. So you could be aware of it in the terms of
18 Chicago, I would describe it as a group of individuals
19 who are working to make money for themselves illegally
20 through different means, extortion, prostitution, juice
21 loans, that type of thing. It's a money-making
22 operation where you pay no taxes and no fees.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Would you say that they
24 are working at the business of crime?
25 THE WITNESS: The business of crime, yes.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) You've used the term "juice
2 loans". Could you describe what that is.
3 A. Juice loans is the lending of money at
4 exorbitant interest rates that never get paid off in
5 some cases and -- that's about it.
6 Q. You've heard of the term "street tax"?
9 A. Street tax. If you're running anything that
10 is remotely connected to any different crews, i. e.,
11 bookmaking, any type of gambling, prostitution,
12 pornography, you have to pay a street tax to whoever's
13 crew is responsible for that operation. That comes
14 right to them on a cash basis, sometimes weekly,
15 sometimes monthly.
16 Q. When you say "to them," who's them?
17 A. To the members of different crews, whoever's
18 responsible for that operation, whatever crew is
19 responsible for gambling, whatever crew is responsible
20 for prostitution. Whatever crew is responsible
21 bookmaking, they would get paid the street tax if you're
22 a bookmaker. If you're a bookmaker, they would pay the
23 street tax. Plus on some occasions, you're paying
24 street tax to them plus you're paying street tax to the
25 police department in the same situation.
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11
1 Q. How are crews related to organized crime?
2 A. The term crew is used very loosely, and they
3 are different areas of expertise, as they say it, in
4 their business. A certain crew of guys would be in
5 charge of the juice loan, lending of the money. Another
6 crew would be responsible for collecting the money.
7 Another crew would be responsible for making sure that
8 it got to the bosses and the different people who were
10 It's a make-up of guys who are assigned a job
11 to do and that's what they do.
12 Q. All of this is in the context of the Chicago
13 outfit, you're talking about now.
14 A. Well Chicago outfit, mid western outfit,
15 whatever areas that they control, that's how that
17 Q. During the period of time you served on the
18 police force, did you ever participate in organized
20 A. From the day I came on the job, I was involved
21 in organized crime activity until I left the job. From
23 Q. From the very day you began.
25 Q. Did you associate with members and associates
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
12
1 of the Chicago outfit as a police officer?
2 A. I certainly did.
3 MR. CARMELL: I'm going to object to that
4 term. That presupposes he knows who is an associate,
5 who is a member, what a member is, what an associate is.
6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let me have that
8 MR. BOSTWICK: Actually, it would be better to
9 establish the foundation on all of those topics.
11 Q. (BY MS. BOSTWICK) Can you describe for me in
12 your own words what a member of organized crime is as
14 A. It's very difficult to do that, but I'll try
15 as best I can. You know, the terms made and all this
16 other stuff that you see in the media and you see on TV
17 and you hear all that, for thirty-some years I was
18 involved with these people, and as we go along I'll
19 explain who these people are.
20 Made is a term only of respect, how much
21 respect a certain guy is given and what kind of bag of
22 money he gets during the month.
23 Associate members are guys who are wannabes.
24 They want to get made, they want to be in a position to
25 have that power, so they're doing all the running
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
13
1 around, making all the deals and handling the day-to-day
2 street operation.
3 The made guys, as you term them, are in a
4 position where they don't do anything. They just
5 collect. They just get their bag and that's it.
6 I mean, associate members I know -- I know to
7 get the terminology that you're using and I can describe
8 what position I think certain people were in, but to
9 describe made and associate and executive positions is a
11 Q. Did you associate during the period you served
12 on the police force with individuals who were associated
13 or who are made in the Chicago outfit?
14 A. In your terminology, I would say I did. Yes,
15 I did, absolutely.
16 Q. Well let's stick with your terminology now.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. What time did you leave the police force?
22 Q. Yes. What date, approximately?
23 A. You mean was I done off the police department?
25 A. May of 1981.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. From '81 to '87, you still held a badge at one
2 point. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, I did, almost the entire time.
4 Q. How did that work? Tell me about that.
6 Q. How did it work that you held a badge but you
8 A. After I was -- I was removed from the police
9 department in what you would say was a political coup.
10 Our town was strictly controlled by politics and other
11 things. And I lost my job after a mayor was elected who
12 wanted to reform the police department.
13 After that period of time, I went to my
14 township committeeman who was a personal friend of mine,
15 Morgan Finnley, and, you know, told him, you know, I've
16 been a policeman for twenty years. I need to carry a
17 gun, I need a badge. So they recommended that I come
18 down and work for him, which I did, as an investigator.
19 Shortly after I was there as an investigator,
20 I was taken up to Sheriff Elrod and I was sworn in as a
21 deputy sheriff's policeman and given a star which
22 permitted me again to carry a weapon.
23 Q. During this period of time, 1981 to 1987, did
24 you still participate in the affairs of the Chicago
25 outfit?
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
15
1 A. Absolutely.
2 Q. And actively associated with members and
3 associates of organized crime until you went to jail in
4 1987?
5 A. Absolutely. Up until the day I went to jail.
6 Q. Let's go back to the beginning, Mr. Corbitt.
7 How did you initially become involved in organized crime?
8 A. I was initially, and at the time not knowing
9 that I was involved in it, initially my first job as a
10 teenager was for a company called A & W Electric which
11 was in Summit, Illinois. It was owned by two brothers
12 Pete and Bill Altiere. They also had another guy who
13 was operating the company called -- I think it was Bill
14 White.
15 This company was a company that supplied slot
16 machines, gambling paraphernalia. As a background, the
17 company reworked and worked electric motors in the
18 front, but in the back they handled, you know, slot
19 machines and different machines.
20 I was a route guy. I would go out on a route
21 with another guy and we would pick up machines, slot
22 machines that were broken down and stuff like that and
23 bring them in and repair them.
24 From that point, I left there. And through
25 meeting a few people in there and telling them --
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
16
1 expressing my desire to go into my own business, some
2 people helped me financially and I went into the gas
3 station business. I owned a gas station at 56th and
4 Harlem in Summit.
5 Q. Approximately how old were you at this time
6 when you owned the gas station?
7 A. Eighteen. I operated this gas station. And
8 while operating this gas station, the people who I had
9 met at A & W Electric started trading with me.
10 I had a large fenced -- half-fenced lot next
11 to my place which was owned by the gas station. And on
12 occasion these guys would come in and what to park a
13 truck there and leave it for a week or leave it
14 overnight, which I permitted them to do.
15 Q. When you say "these guys," who do you mean?
16 A. Different members of -- which I now know were
17 referred to as organized crime.
18 These trucks turned out to be hijacked
19 material, stolen material, and they would leave them
20 there. When they would pick them up, they would give me
21 an envelope with some money in it and thank you very
23 And then I started to get a big trade in
24 different guys from these different crews of people and
25 one of them was Sam Giancanna. And Sam Giancanna and
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
17
1 another -- several other guys, Dominic Blassi,
2 Marshall Caifano, John Caifano and other people, would
3 come there and leave their cars and be picked by up
4 other people and be gone for a day, sometimes two days,
5 sometimes three days, and leave their car with me. And
6 they started trading at my gas station on a daily basis.
7 Q. Who are these people, Sam Giancanna, the
8 individuals you just mentioned, Caifano?
9 A. Who are they as far as what?
10 Q. As far as organized criminal activity, to your
12 A. Sam Giancanna at the time was the ultimate
13 boss of organized in Chicago at that particular time.
14 Q. Approximately what period is that?
15 A. That was in the nineteen sixties, mid sixties.
16 Q. How long did you own this gas station?
17 A. I had it several years. Almost two years, I
18 believe.
19 Q. Now how about Caifano, the Caifanos that you
20 mentioned; who were they?
21 A. John Caifano was an upper echelon guy of
22 organized crime. And, you know, there were many other
23 people who used the gas station that were involved with
24 these different -- with these different crews. As we go
25 along, I'll think of their names. I know most of their
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 names.
2 Do you want me to go on?
3 Q. No. Were you involved in assisting with the
4 criminal activities of others during this period?
5 A. Oh, sure. I stored their trucks, I stored
6 merchandise. They would bring merchandise in there from
7 the trunks of their cars and store it in my gas station
8 for some times up to a week, come and pick it up, take
9 it someplace else. You know, I would say I assisted
11 Q. Did you receive money for this?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. How did you receive that?
14 A. They would give me an envelope, they'd give me
15 a hundred dollar bill, they'd give me a fifty dollar
16 bill. They were always very good to me.
17 Q. Did there come a time where you quit this gas
18 station business or left it?
19 A. There came a time when I was told by the
20 owners, who happened to be the Altiere brothers that I
21 worked for originally, they owned a supper club on
22 Harlem Avenue call the Forum and my gas station was
23 directly next door. They came in one day and told me,
24 listen, we need this place for parking. We're going to
25 level the gas station. We're going to put a parking lot
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 in here. You're going to have to look for a job.
2 So several weeks after that occurred,
3 Sam Giancanna and Dominic Blassi came in. And they were
4 aware of what was going, and we had a conversation and
5 Sam Giancanna say what do you want to do?
6 I said I want to get a job. I want to make
8 He says do you want to be a policeman?
9 I said, no, I don't really want to be a
10 policeman.
11 He said, well, you know, it would a good thing
12 for you to, you know, get a job as a policeman and maybe
13 you could help us out once in a while.
14 At that point I was -- I had a young son, I
15 was newly married and I needed a job, and so I said,
16 yeah, I'll take the job as a policeman.
17 So he referred me to a mayor in
18 Willow Springs, John Rust. And I went out and had an
19 hour meeting with him and was sworn in in his tavern
20 that day as a police officer, that day. I think I was
21 twenty-one or twenty-two years old.
22 Q. That's how you got your start in the police
23 force?
24 A. That's how I got my start.
25 Q. Did you have a subsequent conversation after
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 you were sworn in on the police force with
2 Sam Giancanna?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Can you tell us about that.
5 A. Several weeks after I was on the police
6 department, I was working an afternoon shift, and as I
7 came into the station, for some reason I saw Sam's car
8 sitting in the parking lot. They were both in the car
9 -- two guys were in the car.
10 I drove up, and he got in the car with me and
11 he asked he, he said, well what do you think?
12 I said I think it's all right. It's kind of
13 boring, but I think it's okay. It'll be all right.
14 He said -- he just told me one thing, he said,
15 well, if it works out good, he said, just remember your
16 friends, just remember who put you in this position.
18 Q. Can you describe -- this is Willow Springs.
19 Is that correct?
21 Q. Can you describe for us the town of
22 Willow Springs, the population, size of the police
24 A. When I went on the police department in the
25 sixties, Willow Springs was a town of about thirty-five
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
21
1 hundred people. It's a rustic, scenic area right in the
2 middle of a forest preserve area. It's bounded by
3 Route 45, I-55, 294, Route 83, Willow Springs Road.
4 It's a very nice community esthetically.
5 At the time that I became a police officer
6 there, the entire structure of the town
7 politically-wise, business-wise, the town was completely
8 controlled by organized crime. From liquor licenses to
9 construction to everything that went on in that
10 community was controlled by different crews over my
11 period of time that I was in that town.
12 Q. From the sixties to the eighties?
13 A. Who ran for office later, in the later years,
14 who became mayor was not really too much in their hands,
15 but by that time they controlled all the businesses and
16 everything that was -- when I say "all the businesses,"
17 I don't mean every single business, but I mean every
18 single business that involved liquor licenses.
19 The town of thirty-five hundred people had
20 almost forty liquor licenses. We had one strip that was
21 complete -- I would say at least eight houses of
22 prostitution in a row. We had at least six bookmaking
23 operations. We had two full-blown casinos.
24 Most of the town's liquor licenses stopped at
25 two and four o'clock in the morning. Our town didn't
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
22
1 get busy until two and four o'clock in the morning. And
2 that was seven nights a week.
3 Q. How big was the police force?
4 A. When I got there, it was, like, four full-time
5 men and I think we had about seven or eight part-time
6 men. A chief and three patrolmen and maybe seven or
7 eight part-time officers.
8 Q. How about toward the end of your term in the
10 A. When I left the department, we had, I believe,
11 twenty to twenty-five sworn officers and maybe ten or
12 fifteen or twenty part-time officers, working, sworn
13 officers.
14 Q. As a police officer in Willow Springs
15 throughout this period, the sixties to the early
16 eighties, did you take any specific action to assist the
17 Chicago outfit in its criminal activities in
19 A. Specific action. I would say that, you know,
20 on a weekly basis, sometimes on a daily basis, we were
21 involved in something that was going on with these
22 people, from disturbances in their establishments to
23 couriering money from one place to another. Yes, I
24 would say that I did facilitate their activities in that
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23
1 Q. Did you ever perform license plate checks?
2 A. Absolutely.
4 A. License plate checks on -- okay. On occasion
5 we had -- we didn't have a computer in our community at
6 that time or what they call a raids machine, so we had
7 to go through either the county sheriff's police or
8 another town that was doing work for us,
10 Occasionally the -- several members, different
11 members and different guys would say check this license
12 plate for me. I've seen this car following me, I've
13 seen this car by my house.
14 And I would check a license plate numbers for
15 them. Nine out of ten times they were Bureau of Chicago
17 I used to do this quite often, and on several
18 occasions I received visits from special agents of the
19 FBI wanting to know, you know, what I was doing in
20 regard to this procedure. Because when you -- well
21 never mind. When you check -- when you check a bureau
22 car or an FBI car, you get a different response than you
23 do from a normal license plate check.
24 Q. It's on those instances where you would be
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
24
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were some of the establishments that you've
3 named, or all the establishments that you've named, the
4 liquor areas, the prostitution, the gambling
5 establishments, were you aware at any time as to whether
6 they were paying street tax to the Chicago outfit?
7 A. In those particular cases, I would say that
8 every place in there was already in the fold. They
9 weren't outsiders doing business. These operations were
10 run by their people. You know, I could be specific
12 Q. Why don't you give us a couple of specifics.
13 A. All right. One of the operations on
14 Keane Avenue, and there were three of them, one was
15 called the Miami Club, one was called a Bonanza Club and
16 one was called the Circle H Ranch. These were directly
17 run by guys who were in these different crews.
18 Kenny Hanson was one of the guys who ran an
19 operation. A guy by the name of Al Lorenz from the
20 Heights ran another one of the operations. And two
21 brother named Mike and Bob David, who were also out of
22 the Heights, out of the Chicago Heights, ran another
23 operation. And in concert, they would run their places
24 plus several other places that were already established
25 businesses in the community.
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1 Q. Was there any system devised relating to raids
2 of these establishments?
3 A. Well we didn't do much raiding from our
4 perspective in the community. But there was a system
5 devised back before we received our -- before we got own
6 radio room and our own radio operation that -- we had a
7 switch in the police station that would shut off the
8 street lights in the community.
9 When we were notified or asked to assist,
10 which on occasion they did, in a raid by the county
11 sheriff's police, the state police would come in, we
12 would hit the switch for the street lights and all the
13 establishments would shut down their operation.
14 At that time -- now you're talking about in
15 the mid sixties to the late sixties to the early
16 seventies Willow Springs still had three hundred slot
17 machines in it operating on a daily basis. One
18 establishment had a hundred fifty or two hundred of its
19 own machines in a fake wall that would disappear.
20 Q. Where was that establishment located?
21 A. On Archer Road, at the old American Legion
22 Center, which wasn't run by the American Legion but they
23 had their sign up for ten years. It was a, you know,
24 block building that was upstairs and downstairs and --
25 THE HEARING OFFICER: Was it a safe, a safe
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26
2 THE WITNESS: No, it was a wall, a fake wall
3 that would move down in front of the slot machines if
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Oh, okay. I understand.
6 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) You were in this
7 establishment, you saw this wall?
8 A. I was in there a hundred times.
9 Q. Now you also mentioned delivering money for
10 these people, as you've said, the mob. Can you describe
12 A. We're getting out of time frames. If you want
13 to keep it in the same time frame, we can talk about
14 what was going on with money at that time frame.
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. In the late sixties and early seventies.
18 A. Okay. Our mayor and our chief of police at
19 the time had a system which was a trickle-down system
20 but didn't trickle down very far. It was just like a --
21 it trickled down to them and then that was the end of
22 the system, and we were doing -- the patrolmen and the
23 guys on the street were doing all the work.
24 So we finally went to them and said, listen,
25 you know, this is a little ridiculous. We're doing all
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
27
1 the work, we're getting in all these fights, we're
2 getting -- you know, you guys got to start trickling
4 Well they objected to that situation, and we
5 convinced them that it would probably be the best thing
7 So on a weekly basis we would -- the mayor at
8 that time owned a tavern in this same strip where all
9 these houses of prostitution were at.
10 Q. This is Mr. Rust?
11 A. John "Doc" Rust. They called him Doc. His
12 father was a doctor and he pretended he was a doctor.
13 He would get an envelope from certain people
14 delivered to him. Then when we objected, the envelope
15 started coming to us, and then we would deliver it to
16 him just so we could be there at the same time the
17 envelope was opened and that sort of thing.
18 So we would meet -- one of the members would
19 come out of the Heights or wherever they were at the
20 time, whoever was operating in our town, and they would
21 bring a package. We would meet them and we would go to
22 the tavern, and it would be cut up right there in the
23 tavern and everybody would get a piece of the action.
24 Q. Did you continue receiving payoffs through the
25 late seventies and early eighties.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
28
2 Q. How did it work then?
3 A. Well, you know, as time went on, we changed a
4 lot of things and different crews came in and different
5 people came in. You had to be a lot more careful about
6 how you were doing things.
7 There would one person, myself, who would met
8 with these people, and then whatever splitting up would
9 be done, I would do it. As the boss then, after 1973, I
10 took care of that. I took care of that end. I would
11 meet these people.
12 Q. When you say "as the boss," you mean the boss
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Were you aware that the outfit operated in
18 Willow Springs and elsewhere in Chicago during the
19 entire period you were on the police force?
21 Q. Did you ever investigate this organized
22 criminal activity in order to clean it up?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Why not?
25 A. That would have cost myself money. Why would
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
29
1 I want to clean it up at that time. I was no -- I had
2 no ambition to do that.
3 Q. Let me hand you what we've marked as GEB
4 Attorney's Exhibit 50, and maybe Mr. Vaira can take a
5 look over your should at this.
6 First of all, can you identify this document
8 A. It's a memorandum from my prosecutor
9 Thomas Scorza, U. S. Attorney's Office, dated
11 Q. When you say your prosecutor, what do you mean?
12 A. The U. S. Attorney that prosecuted me in all
13 three of my cases.
14 Q. Where did you get this memorandum from?
15 A. I got it in discovery in our 1987 racketeering
18 A. I believe I gave it to you.
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's that called,
20 Mr. Bostwick? What's that number?
21 MR. BOSTWICK: It's GEB Attorney's Exhibit
22 Number 50. And I'd move it for admission at this point.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Admitted.
24 (GEB Attorney's Exhibit Number 50 admitted
25 into evidence)
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
30
1 MR. CARMELL: Well can I just ask what it's
3 MR. BOSTWICK: Well if you'd rather I move for
4 admission after we go over it, I can do that.
5 MR. CARMELL: No, that's not my point. I
6 definitely can't read it. It's a lot material. Is it
7 dealing with matters he's talking about now in his
8 position as Officer, later Chief of Willow Springs, in
9 that area?
10 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes. It relates to
11 confirmation of the type of testimony he just provided.
12 MR. CARMELL: For that purpose, I don't have
13 an objection to this document coming in.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead.
15 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Can you describe what this
16 memorandum is before we go to specifics. What's
17 detailed in this memorandum?
18 A. This is a memorandum I believe from an
19 undercover agent of the FBI, Agent Larry Damron, who I
20 knew as Larry White -- or Wright, Larry Wright.
21 Q. What was this undercover operation, what did
23 A. This was really an undercover sting operation
24 where the FBI had put an undercover agent in with an
25 operation -- an organized crime operation run by
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
31
1 Michael Spilotro and Victor Spilotro.
2 MR. CARMELL: Excuse me. Just to clarify,
3 Mr. Hearing Officer.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes. Go ahead.
5 MR. CARMELL: This is a document which is from
6 an Assistant United States Attorney concerning notes of
7 an interview with a Special Agent Larry Damron, and this
8 is Larry -- involves Larry Damron's report of matters.
9 It does not involve anything that the witness has given.
10 Is that a fair statement, Mr. Bostwick?
11 THE WITNESS: I don't understand. I don't
13 MR. CARMELL: Well I'm just trying to get a --
14 this is not a statement of Mr. Corbitt's.
15 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct.
16 MR. CARMELL: It's not a statement of
17 Mr. Corbitt's, and my quick perusal of it, there is not
18 a statement in that it concerns -- well I shouldn't say
19 concerns. That's all I want to be clear, that this
20 isn't Mr. Corbitt having told the FBI agent or
22 MR. BOSTWICK: Well except that there are
23 taped conversations that he's recorded on with the FBI
24 agent.
25 MR. CARMELL: According to Mr. Corbitt.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
32
1 MR. BOSTWICK: According to this report.
2 MR. CARMELL: That's all I wanted clear up.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: There's something in
4 here about Mike Corbitt talking to the agent, and this
5 is why he got this during the trial. It's some sort of
6 a 302.
7 MR. CARMELL: Right. I understand. But it's
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: No, no, no. It looks to
10 me like there's -- there's something in here.
11 MR. CARMELL: Right.
12 THE HEARING: They do talk about Corbitt.
13 Willow Springs is right down the road from
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, very close.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right.
17 THE WITNESS: Very close.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead.
19 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Is it fair to say that you
20 were a target or a subject of this FBI undercover
21 operation?
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. Were you taped, according to this
24 memorandum --
25 A. No.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. -- in some of your phone -- in some of your
2 conversations?
3 A. No. No, I -- I believe they taped Michael and
4 Victor's conversations. I was never taped. He never
6 Q. Michael and Victor are who?
7 A. Spilotro.
8 Q. What is going on here? What are they trying
9 to set up and how are you involved?
10 A. Okay. What I believe the FBI was attempting
11 to do was to infiltrate the operation that was going on
12 in Willow Springs, my operation, because I was under
13 investigation at the time.
14 They had two members of organized crime,
15 Michael and Victor --
16 Q. Spilotro --
17 A. -- Spilotro, who this guy Larry Wright Damron
18 was a partner in a business that factored credit card
19 invoices. These credit invoices were coming from strip
20 joints, houses of prostitutions, juice loan operations,
21 and it was -- they were doing this with a credit card.
23 Spilotro told this guy Larry Damron Wright
24 that they thought they could get to me to open up an
25 off-track messenger service in Willow Springs, i. e. to
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
34
1 operate really as a bookmaking operation, no off-track.
2 So they sent this guy to see me and had a
3 meeting with me, and which I did have the meeting,
4 and --
5 Q. Is this the meeting on May 27, 1982.
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Referred to at the bottom of Page 2?
9 Q. Why don't you take us through that paragraph,
10 the paragraph that begins on the bottom of Page 2 and
11 ends a little above the middle of the page and --
12 A. Do you want me to read it?
13 Q. You can reads parts of it and paraphrase
14 others and tell us what happens in this meeting, what it
15 illustrates.
16 A. It says, "On May 27, 1982, Marren, who is
17 "Joe Marren, one of the people who worked for
18 "Spilotro, took Damron to meet Corbitt at the
19 "Willow Springs Police Station. Corbitt was not at
20 "the station when Damron and Marren first arrived
21 "there, but Corbitt then drove up to the station
22 "in his police car. Marren went up to the police
23 "car and spoke to Corbitt and then got in the back
24 "seat. Marren then called Damron over and
25 "introduced him as Larry. Damron then had a
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 "conversation with Michael Corbitt in which it was
2 "clear that Marren had already told Corbitt about
3 "the proposed plan to open a messenger service in
4 "Willow Springs. Before the meeting Marren had
5 "also told Damron that Corbitt had been making
6 "money on the side fixing DWIs and referring cases
7 "to his favorite lawyer. In any event, in the
8 "May 27, 1982, conversation Damron told Corbitt of
9 "the success of the Palatine operation and the
10 "monthly payments that operation generated for
11 "public officials there. Corbitt responded that
12 "the monthly payment offer was fine with him, and
13 "in the conversation made plain that his proposed
14 "messenger service was simply a front for an
15 "illegal bookmaking activity. Corbitt told
16 "Damron that Corbitt was satisfied with Damron's
17 "proposed payoff arrangement and Corbitt even
18 "suggested two locations that might be suitable for
19 "a Willow Springs messenger service. Corbitt also
20 "specifically inquired whether Damron had obtained
21 "the okay of the county, meaning the corrupt county
22 "sheriff's police. Corbitt also told Damron that
23 "Corbitt would need to have advanced approval from
24 "the Bastone brothers, who were street level bosses
25 "for the Chicago Mafia. Chicago insisted that one
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 "of these" --
2 Q. I'm sorry. That's not Chicago. It's Corbitt.
3 Right?
5 Q. You said Chicago insisted. It's Corbitt
6 insisted. Right?
7 A. Right. "Corbitt insisted that one of these OC
8 "guys would have to call Corbitt directly so that
9 "Corbitt would know that Damron had the mob's okay
10 "to operate as bookmaking service out of
11 "Willow Springs. Following their conversation
12 "with Corbitt, Marren and Damron actually drove
13 "around and visited specific sites for the
14 "messenger service operation, including two
15 "addresses Corbitt suggested."
16 Q. Did this occur?
17 A. Yes, it did.
18 Q. Is this a fairly accurate depiction of how it
19 is that you would interact with people who were trying
20 to set up payoffs for illegal bookmaking operations in
21 Willow Springs?
22 A. The only difference is, is that usually when
23 they come to you, they already have everybody's
24 approval. Nobody comes to you out of the dark, out of
25 the -- and says, you know, we want to do this and do
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
37
1 that.
2 Usually when somebody comes -- usually when
3 they came to me, I already had advance knowledge they
4 were coming and knew all about what they were going to
5 do.
6 THE HEARING OFFICER. Let me inquire. This
7 messenger service, am I correct, this is some sort of
8 phenomenon that started in Illinois --
9 THE WITNESS: Correct.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: -- where they would have
11 a -- it would really be off-track betting, and
12 supposedly the messenger service would simply carry your
13 bet from wherever it is to the track.
14 THE WITNESS: But that never occurred.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: That never occurred.
16 Right. And in fact, there was an original called
17 Pegasus.
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: And the ruse was that,
20 yeah, you were suppose to be sending messengers, but you
21 were really --
22 THE WITNESS: It was laid off. They were
24 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) The Bastone brothers are
25 mentioned in this. Who are the Bastone brothers?
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
38
1 A. The brothers that I was referring to in this
2 conversation were Carmen and Sal Bastone. Salvatore and
3 Carmen Bastone, two guys that -- one guy in particular I
4 had been involved with for over twenty years at the time
5 and the other guy I'd known for ten or fifteen years,
6 Carmen. Sal I had been involved with for over twenty
8 Q. Now why is it that you would require advance
9 approval from the them specifically as opposed to just
10 somebody's word?
11 A. At that particular time, this was their area.
12 The Spilotros had nothing whatsoever to do in that area.
13 Everything they wanted to do, or any other crew, had to
14 go through them. This was their turf, territory,
15 whatever you want to call it.
16 Q. On the payoffs, if you had received those and
17 when you received them in other instances, who would the
19 A. What do you mean who would it go to?
20 Q. Well if you're going to get the payoff, where
21 does that money go?
22 A. It went to me.
23 Q. Anybody else?
24 A. Well whoever I -- whoever I deemed worthy,
25 yes. But mostly it went to me.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. Did the mob get a cut of these operations?
2 A. Absolutely. That operation there absolutely
3 would have paid a street tax to whoever's area that was
5 Q. Did other outfit bosses and crews other than
6 the Bastone brothers work in the Willow Springs area
7 over the time --
9 Q. -- in the late sixties to the early eighties?
11 Q. Even into the mid to late eighties?
12 A. Into the mid to late eighties. Maybe today,
14 Q. But as far as your personal knowledge, until
15 '87 when you went to jail.
17 Q. Describe the nature of your relationship with
18 Sal Bastone during the seventies and eighties.
19 A. Sal Bastone and I would see each other on a --
20 sometime on a daily basis in the late -- in the late
21 eighties on a daily basis. I was at his home; he as at
22 my home. We were -- went through all our family
23 tragedies, deaths, marriages, christenings. We were
25 Q. Did you have any specific relationship with
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 his children or vice versa?
2 A. His children were like my children. They were
3 in my house, they were on my boats, they were at my
4 vacation home, they were -- we were, you know, like best
5 friends.
6 Q. I'm going to show you after I show it to
7 Mr. Carmell here and then Mr. Vaira a couple of
8 photographs. I'll ask you to identify those.
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay those are marked --
10 MR. BOSTWICK: Actually, these have not been
11 entered yet. These are new.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: These are 164A, 164B.
13 Okay. Show them to Mr. Corbitt.
14 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Mr. Corbitt, can you tell
15 me what 164A is? Is that the one you're looking at?
16 A. I64A is a picture of myself and Sal Bastone in
17 his condominium building in Hollywood, Florida, sometime
18 in the mid seventies -- early seventies.
19 164B is Salvatore Bastone, my youngest son
21 Q. Where did I get these photos?
22 A. From me.
23 MR. CARMELL: Can we fix the approximate date
25 THE WITNESS: B would have been -- he's 14
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
41
1 now. So early eighties.
2 MR. BOSTWICK: I'd move admission of 164A and
3 164B.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Admitted.
5 (GEB Attorney's Exhibits Number 164A and 164B
6 admitted into evidence)
7 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Who were some of your other
8 close contacts with the Chicago outfit? You've said
9 Mr. Giancanna and Mr. Bastone. Who were some of the
11 A. Contacts?
12 Q. Who were your closest contacts or associates?
13 A. Over the years, you know, I was in contact
14 with everybody who was anybody. I mean, I was -- I
15 captioned boats that Joey Aiuppa was on,
16 Petes Battaglia, Jackie Cerone. I brought packages to
17 his homes.
19 A. Joey Aiuppa. I traveled with him to --
20 Q. When you say "packages," let me stop you right
21 there. First of all, who is Joey Aiuppa?
22 A. Joey Aiuppa is a recently deceased head of
23 organized crime in Chicago and was for maybe forty
24 years.
25 Q. When you say you brought packages to his home,
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
42
1 what type of packages and for what purpose?
2 A. I -- I dropped off -- I'll start with
3 cigarettes. He was a very heavy smoker and he smoked
4 English Oval cigarettes.
5 One of the other businesses that I was
6 involved with, i. e., organized crime, was Rent-All
7 Vending, which was owned and controlled by a Jewish
8 fellow named Hy Larner, and they supplied him with all
9 of his cigarettes. So once every couple of months we
10 would take a case of cigarettes to whatever home he was
11 at in the Chicago area.
12 And he would only allow specific people to
13 bring them. And I would come, I would go with Sal, I
14 would go by myself and we would --
15 Q. Sal Bastone?
16 A. Sal Bastone.
17 I would bring packages that I had no knowledge
18 what was inside of them from jewelers in Chicago. One
19 in particular, Rocket Jewelers, downtown Chicago, every
20 holiday season I would go down and pick up a big package
21 from the jewelers and bring it there.
22 I would bring packages that I believe
23 contained money to his different homes, River Forest,
25 Q. Did you do this in your police car?
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 A. In unmarked police cars and in private cars.
2 Q. How about Joe Testa; who is he?
3 A. Joe is a friend of -- was a friend of mine for
4 thirty-some years. That's who he was.
5 Q. Associated with the Chicago outfit mainly?
7 Q. How so?
8 A. He owned a savings and loan, he owned a lot of
9 property. He was a real estate developer. Some of
10 these people invested in his projects. He was for a
11 great long time very well liked.
12 Q. Through the experiences you've described and
13 the relationships with these individuals, Sal Bastone,
14 Sam Giancanna, Joe Testa and others, did you learn about
15 the leadership structure of organized crime in Chicago?
16 A. What I would assume, I mean, my own opinion as
18 Q. Was your understanding of the leadership
19 structure important to you in your position helping out
20 the outfit as the Willow Springs Police Chief?
21 A. Well it wasn't really important to me because
22 I was like a protected guy. I had a guy -- I had a
23 Chinaman that would not let anybody come near me for
24 frivolous garbage, and I had a guy who kept people away
25 from me.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
44
1 Q. Who is that?
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: You used the word
4 "Chinaman". That I believe is used in a --
5 THE WITNESS: Clout.
6 MR. BOSTWICK: Like a rabbi or --
7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Somebody who's either
8 your rabbi or your godfather. In Chicago it's often
10 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) A protector.
11 A. Right. Right.
12 Q. Now at a certain point in time the
13 Inspector General's Office from LIUNA contacted you and
14 gave you a list of names of individuals who had worked
15 as officers or delegates on the Chicago District
16 Counsel. Do you recall that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Do you recall what your first instinct on that
19 list was?
20 A. I remember -- and this was early on, I think
21 the first time I met you. I told you there was a
22 picture out and I had seen it several times in the last
23 couple of years. The photo was referred to as the last
24 supper. And I said that's a picture you ought to get.
25 There's a -- you know, you want to talk about
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 organized labor and the unions in Chicago, there's a
2 picture that you should get. And I gave you, I think --
3 as a matter of fact, I gave you a picture that was a
4 black-and-white picture of that situation.
5 Q. Let me give you what has already been entered
6 in our hearing as Exhibit 6A. I'm going to show you
7 this picture. Can identify that for me?
8 A. Yes, I can.
9 Q. What is that?
10 A. That's a colored picture of the
11 black-and-white picture that I gave to you.
12 Q. Who is the individual -- I've only got the one
13 photograph down here because we're traveling. We better
14 keep that off the telephone.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. That may be a
17 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Who is the individual in
18 Exhibit A who is marked as Number 7?
19 A. Number 7 is Al Pilotto.
20 Q. Had you ever heard at any time that he was a
21 union official for the Laborers' Union in the Chicago
22 area?
23 A. Yes, I have.
24 Q. During what period of time had you heard that?
25 A. For a long period of time that I was on the
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
46
1 street. I mean, I can't give you an exact breakdown.
2 But, you know, I know Al Pilotto personally so I knew he
4 Q. In your experience, what did Al Pilotto do for
6 A. In my experience?
8 A. He was a -- the boss of the Chicago Heights
9 crew. That's what he did for a living, as far as I
10 knew, other than his union affiliate.
11 Q. Over what period of time was he a boss of the
12 Chicago Heights crew?
13 A. When I first came to Willow Springs, he was an
14 underboss to a guy by the name Frankie LaPorte.
15 Q. Frankie LaPorte?
17 Q. How do you spell that last name?
18 A. L-A-P-O-R-T-E, I believe. I'm not sure.
20 He was an underboss, and at the time I came to
21 Willow Springs he was running our community's
22 involvement in organized crime with several other
23 people. But he was the boss. Underboss, but the boss
24 out there. Street boss.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
47
2 Q. When did you first meet Al Pilotto, do you
4 A. Maybe six or eight months after I was on the
5 job. Previous to that, we dealt with other people who
6 were aligned with him and with him. I heard his name
7 and I met him maybe six months after I was on the job.
8 Q. Can you describe that situation?
9 A. Yeah, I can. We were at the time -- the strip
10 that they controlled was called Keane Avenue. It ran
11 from 87th to 81st and Keane. And again, there were five
12 or six houses of prostitution, a couple of disco joints,
13 a couple of bookmaking operations and the mayor's tavern
14 were all on that strip. And it was famous for fights
15 and disturbances, as these places are.
16 And on one occasion our cars, along with
17 mutual aid from other communities, responded to a very
18 serious disturbance. As we were responding, some
19 individuals opened up on the squad cars with shotguns
20 from a cemetery that was directly across the street.
21 And nobody was injured, but some severe damage was done
22 to one of our squad cars.
23 And the next day, you know, the chief took the
24 car to the mayor and he told him, hey, listen, look what
25 they're doing to our squad cars.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
48
1 MR. CARMELL: I'm going to object to this
2 unless he was there when they had the conversation.
3 THE WITNESS: Which conversation?
4 MR. CARMELL: The chief going to the mayor.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well let's put it this
6 way: He's about to describe a conversation. Right?
7 And he knows about it somehow. Will you tell us how you
8 know about this conversation. You were on the police
9 force at that time.
10 THE WITNESS: Right. Right. I was brought
11 into the circumstances later in the day after the mayor
12 and the chief had this conversation. I was told by the
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: You may tell us that.
15 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) What did the chief tell
16 you?
17 A. The chief told me that he had went up to the
18 mayor and showed him the squad car, and there was some
19 damage to the windows and the side of the car and
20 everything.
21 And the mayor had told him to jack the price
22 up on it, find out what it's going to cost, jack it up,
23 get hold of Al Pilotto and make them pay for the damage.
24 So, in fact, that's what what we did.
25 The damage on the car was about a thousand
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 dollars. We took it to a dealer and it was about a
2 thousand dollars. The chief added two thousand to it
3 and called Pilotto and asked him to come out to the --
4 to bring the money.
5 Q. Were you involved in that?
6 A. I was there. I was at the mayor's tavern when
7 Al Pilotto arrived.
8 Q. What happened then?
9 A. Well Al Pilotto arrived at the tavern, and
10 they went inside and they were discussing --
12 A. The mayor, Doc Rust, and I was outside. And a
13 large disturbance broke out in the tavern so I went in
14 the tavern. Al Pilotto was with a couple of guys who
16 So I went into the tavern, and the -- an
17 argument broke out because Al Pilotto said the mayor was
18 trying to rip him off and they were back and forth with
19 the conversation.
20 Anyway, the substance was, is that the price
21 was cut in half to like fifteen hundred dollars. He
22 gave the mayor the money, and the mayor put the money in
23 his pocket and turned the thing into the insurance and
24 they fixed the car.
25 But after that occasion, I met with Al Pilotto
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
50
1 several other times over a period of years until a
2 different crew came in and took over that area.
3 Q. During what period of time was Al Pilotto
4 involved in organized criminal activity in
6 A. From the mid -- I would say from the mid
7 sixties to the early seventies.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: We've been at it a
9 little bit over an hour. How's the reporter doing?
11 THE WITNESS: I want to take a break.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's take a ten-minute
13 break here.
14 (Recess from 10:30 to 10:45 a. m.)
15 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Mr. Corbitt, we were
16 talking about Al Pilotto and the time period where
17 Mr. Pilotto was involved in organized criminal activity
18 in Willow Springs. Did you ever receive payoffs from
19 Al Pilotto personally?
21 Q. Approximately, what time frame and how often?
22 A. The time frame would have been late '65, also
23 in 1968 and 1969.
24 Q. How did this work? Can you describe the
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 A. We would have a set-up meeting place.
2 Sometimes it would be a restaurant, sometimes it would
3 be at the mayor's tavern, sometimes it would be on the
4 highway. I'd get a call. I'd call them back and say
5 meet me here, meet me there. I'd meet him and I'd go
6 in, and he'd give me an envelope.
7 Q. The envelope would contain money?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. What would it be for? Who would it be for?
10 A. It would be for me, and there'd be a separate
11 envelope -- before I became chief, there was a separate
12 envelope for the chief and there was a separate envelope
13 for the mayor.
14 Q. What did you understand the payment was for?
15 A. For protecting their operations that they had
16 going in Willow Springs.
17 Q. When Al Pilotto left Willow Springs, did you
18 understand that he continued in a leadership position in
19 the outfit?
20 A. Absolutely.
21 Q. How did you understand that?
22 A. Well just through my association with other
23 people that were in that -- that were out in the
24 Willow Springs and other people that I associated with.
25 Frankie LaPorte died, and when that occurred Al Pilotto
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 took over as the boss of the Heights, the
2 Chicago Heights, Blue Island and the southern suburbs.
3 Q. Throughout what period of time did he hold
5 A. I think that would have been during the late
6 sixties, early seventies, and then I believe he went to
8 Q. So it's your understanding that until he went
9 to prison, he held a position in organized crime?
10 A. Absolutely.
11 Q. Let me refer you back to this GEB Attorney
12 Exhibit 6A. Who is Number 8 on that photograph?
13 A. Number 8 is Vincent Solano.
14 Q. Did you ever hear that he was a union official
15 of the Laborers' Union in the Chicago area?
16 A. I knew he was a Teamster official. I didn't
17 know with what union.
18 Q. You didn't know with what union?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In your experience, what did Vince Solano --
21 A. What did he do for a living?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. I have no idea other than a union official or
25 Q. What did he do to make money as you understood
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
53
1 it?
2 A. He was the boss of the north-side street crew.
3 Q. During what period of time?
4 A. I would say, you know, all during the
5 seventies up until the early eighties and maybe even
6 beyond that. I'm not sure after the mid eighties where
7 he was at.
8 Q. Can you describe the general nature of your
9 interaction with Vince Solano? Did you have
10 interactions with him?
11 A. I had interactions with Vince Solano on -- one
12 of the assignments or jobs that I had later on in the
13 seventies and eighties was, I was a courier, I was a
14 money courier for a far north-side crew which delivered
15 money to all the bosses of the different crews.
16 I would go to O'Hara Field, meet somebody that
17 would come into town, take them in my car and spend the
18 entire night and sometime the following morning dropping
19 off packages of what I knew was cash money to different
20 individuals in Chicago.
21 Q. What period of time is this?
22 A. That would have been late sixties, all through
23 the seventies, and until I came to prison.
25 A. Right.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
54
2 A. Vince Solano was one of my drop-off points.
3 And I would meet him at several locations downtown,
4 that's how I was able to finally meet with him
5 personally one-on-one. I used to meet with somebody
6 else and drop his off with somebody else.
7 Q. Who were those people, just for clarification?
8 A. I used to meet with Pat Marcy at
9 Counselor's Row, a restaurant in Chicago, and other
10 locations and drop off garbage bags full of money.
11 Q. Literally, a garbage bag?
13 Q. Like a Hefty trash bag you get from a store?
14 A. Hefty -- maybe a -- I would say 30-gallon
15 garbage bags and -- I mean, they wouldn't be heaped to
16 the top, but that's how they collected the money, in
17 garbage bags. On occasion I knew how much was in the
18 bags. I mean, there was hundreds of thousands of
19 dollars in the bags.
20 Q. Hundreds of thousands?
21 A. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bags.
22 Q. How --
23 A. But not each guy got a hundred thousand
24 dollars. It was taken to a central counting area where
25 they counted it all out, separated it, and then it was
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
55
1 marked who got what, where it went, and it was then
2 delivered.
3 Q. Were you involved in the counting?
5 Q. How do you know that this counting took place?
6 A. I was there when it was counted.
7 Q. You were the person that dropped them off?
8 A. I was one of the persons who dropped it off to
10 Q. Tell me how it was that you came to actually
11 meet face-to-face with Vince Solano.
12 A. One one occasion where I went to meet
13 Pat Marcy to drop off Vince Solano's and several other
14 people's, Pat Marcy told me that Vince did not want him
15 taking his money anymore, that he wanted it delivered
17 So I said, whatever, but, you know, you're
18 going to tell me where and this and that.
19 I had known Vince Solano pervious to this on a
20 somewhat social basis from seeing him around the
21 Rush Street area, seeing him around the north side,
22 seeing him at wakes and different functions that I was
23 introduced to him. So he knew who I was; I knew who he
25 So after that period of time, I would meet him
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 personally and drop off his money.
2 Q. Where would you meet him, what types of
3 places?
4 A. I would meet him restaurants, I met him in
5 restaurants on Rush Street, I met him parking garages, I
6 met in apartment complexes, all over the city.
7 Q. How would you decide where to meet him?
8 A. We would have a phone call and he'd tell me
9 where to meet him. I had a beeper and a portable phone,
10 and he'd contact me or I'd contact him and I'd meet him.
11 Q. Who were some of Vince Solano's closest
12 associates in the outfit that you were aware of? I'm
13 not using the term associates now as mob associates.
14 Who were the people he was closest to within the
15 organization of the Chicago outfit?
16 A. Well, you know, really I don't know specific.
17 There's some people that I know who they were
18 specifically around, but I wasn't around him that much
19 and his different crews to know who the guys were that
20 were around him. I knew some of the people who hung
21 around him, I knew some of the people that were with
22 him. But, you know, as far as crew members, I don't --
23 you know, right off the top of my head, I can't say who
24 he was -- you know, I may think of it as we go along,
25 but I can't think of it right now.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. How about the same question for Al Pilotto.
2 A. Al Pilotto, because I was involved with him
3 for so long, I know quite a few of the guys that were
4 around him. Al Tocco, Bonnets, Mike and Bob David,
5 Frankie LaPorte, Al Lorenz, Wayne Bock, Joey Petite,
6 Nick Guzzino, Richard Guzzino. That's enough.
7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Larry Petite?
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: You said Joey.
10 THE WITNESS: Joe and Larry both.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: The only reason I say
12 that, I always hear them mentioned together,
14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Well they usually always
15 are together.
16 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Why don't you go through
17 the rest of those individuals and simply tell me who
18 they are and the nature -- briefly what the nature of
19 your association, if any, was with these individuals
20 starting with Number 1 on Exhibit 6A.
21 A. Number 1 is Tony Accardo, and I've had, like I
22 said, many, many different meetings and associations
24 Q. What types of places would you see him?
25 A. I captained a boat that he fished on in
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58
1 Florida. I was at his home that he used in
2 Palm Desert, California, where he golfed. I was at
3 wakes with him, I was at weddings with him.
4 He knew me on a personal basis as far as my
5 name. I never associated -- I mean, when I say he was
6 on my boat, he was on my boat with four or five people
7 or on a boat that I captained. They played cards and
8 fished. I really was not privy to a lot of their
9 conversations on the boat.
10 But I knew the man very well. I was at his
11 home in River Forest, I was at his home on Ashland, I
12 was at his home in Barrington.
13 Q. What is your understanding of his position in
14 the Chicago outfit, if any?
15 A. You know, media and terminology of my own, he
16 was the boss of bosses. He was the boss.
17 Q. How about Number 2?
18 Well let me ask one more questions about
19 Tony Accardo. Over what period of time did you
20 understand that he held a leadership position in the
22 A. Did I understand?
23 Q. Right.
24 A. Maybe forty years.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 A. Even though -- even when he stepped back, he
2 never really stepped back. When other people were up
3 front, he was still the boss. I mean, my opinion, just
4 from interaction and things that I saw happen myself
5 personally, he was the boss.
6 Q. How about Number 2?
7 A. Number 2 is Joe Amato, who I never really had
8 a lot of interaction at all with him. I met him on
9 several occasions. He was a DuPage County guy and I
10 never really had a lot of action with him in any period
11 of time.
12 Q. What was your understanding of any position he
14 A. He was a boss. He was an underboss.
15 Q. Of the Chicago outfit?
17 Q. How about Number 3?
18 A. Cesar Divarco. Cesar I know as a boss of a
19 little lower magnitude. He had a powerful crew around
20 him and that's why he was boss. He was north side also,
21 a north-side guy.
22 Q. During what period of time?
23 A. Fifties, sixties and seventies.
24 Q. Can you describe the nature of your
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 A. The same as Amato, I didn't have a lot of
2 interaction with him. I knew him to meet him and to see
3 him and I knew, again, what his position was from other
5 Q. Did you ever drop off money or pay money to
6 him?
8 Q. How about Number 4?
9 A. Number 4 was my good friend for fifteen years,
10 Jimmy Torello, Jimmy "Turk" Torello.
12 A. Turk.
13 Q. That's a nickname?
15 Q. You said he was your good friend. What did
16 you understand his position to be in the Chicago outfit,
18 A. He was a boss. But when I knew him, he was
19 just a guy out working the field. He was partnered up
20 with a guy named Joe Ferriola, Joe Negal. And they had
21 different vending routes and different things that they
22 took care.
23 At one time early on in Willow Spring, that
24 was -- part of the town was in his location, part of it
25 was in the Heights location.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. When you say "his location," you mean
3 A. Turk's domain or Turk's territory came from
4 Route 83, which is not in Willow Springs, to
5 Willow Springs Road. They had maybe one or two houses
6 of prostitution and a couple of vending stops, and that
7 was Turk's area.
8 And him and I became very friendly, and I was
9 around him socially and with him for years, ten years.
10 Q. How often would you see him in that ten-year
11 period?
12 A. Once a month, maybe twice a month. We'd have
13 dinner. He'd call me. I'd meet him in Chinatown, I'd
14 meet him in Oak Brook. A very funny guy, but a very
15 serious guy, too.
16 Q. What type of criminal activity were you aware
17 that he was in? You mentioned the house of
18 prostitution.
19 A. In my opinion, he was involved -- in my
20 opinion, he was involved in a lot things just from our
21 conversation. He was involved in heavy juice loan
22 activity. They were making a lot of loans. They were
23 involved in a lot of cartage thefts, a lot of big
24 trucking thefts that were going on. They were receiving
25 street taxes and the merchandise.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
62
1 And also, he had a crew of active take-down
2 robberies guys that were doing some big scores around --
3 around, not just in Chicago, but all over the country.
4 Guys that I knew just by meeting them through him.
5 Q. Can you tell us a few of the names of these
6 individuals?
7 A. Steve Tomaras was one of them, Jimmy Maraglia
8 was another one, Bobby McCarthy was another one. Those
9 were all take-down guys. Those were all robbery guys.
10 Q. You mentioned a ten-year period of time that
11 you were close with Mr. Torello. What is this ten-year
12 time frame, or approximately?
13 A. I would say the mid -- I would say the mid
14 sixties. No. Make it the late sixties to the late
15 seventies.
16 Q. How about Number 5; who's that on Exhibit 6A?
17 A. Number is Joey Lombardo.
18 Q. Did you know him or have any relationship with
20 A. I knew him; he knew him. I didn't have a lot
21 of relationship with him. He didn't really like me, and
22 that was not a good position to be in, when he didn't
23 like you. He didn't really like me and he voiced this
25 I was a cop. He didn't want no cops around.
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63
1 He didn't want no cops knowing anybody's business. As a
2 matter of fact, he even attempted to dissuade other
3 people who were around me later on not to have anything
4 to do with me. It didn't work. I knew his brother. I
5 was in his --
7 A. His brother is Rocko Lombardo. I knew his
8 son.
10 A. I think his son is named
11 Joey Lombardo, Junior. He's a Junior.
12 Q. In what capacity did you know his son?
13 A. I know him from meeting him at different
14 places when he was growing up. I think he's about ten
15 -- maybe ten or eleven, twelve years younger than me, I
16 think. I'm fifty-three. I think he's in his early
17 forties.
18 I used to go to golf at teh same golf course
19 that he was at, and I believe myself partially that he
20 owned several of these golf courses and --
21 Q. Now you're talking about Joe Lumbardo, Senior?
22 A. Joe Lombardo, Senior. Excuse me.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. But, you know, I was around the guy for twenty
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
64
1 Q. Did you understand from conversations with
2 these other individuals or from your interactions with
3 him whether or not he was involved in the Chicago outfit
5 A. Absolutely was. There's no doubt in my mind.
6 Q. What type of position did he hold?
7 A. Well he was an enforcer. In my estimation, I
8 believe that he filled up a cemetery or two. I believe
9 that had things gone in a different direction for him,
10 he probably would have ended up being the boss, the
11 ultimate boss of Chicago.
12 I think now, my opinion now is, he's still
13 running the show in some fashion.
14 Q. Let me ask you another question about
15 Joe Lombardo, Junior, and your relationship with him.
16 There's a large time gap and age gap. Did you have any
17 specific relationships in dealing with Joe Lombardo,
18 Junior, as they related organized crime?
21 A. Number 6 is Jack Cerone.
22 Q. And can you tell us about Jack Cerone?
23 A. I knew Jack Cerone probably as long as I knew
24 Sam Giancanna. Jack Cerone used to come into my gas
25 station. At the time that I knew him, he was dating a
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
65
1 girl from the Summit area. He would bring his car
2 there, she would pick him up. He would leave the car
3 there. He would always say, you know, change the oil
5 We said we just washed it yesterday.
6 He said wash it again.
7 He'd keep it for three or four days at my gas
8 station and be gone. When he'd come back, he'd pay
9 whatever the tab was and go on.
10 And then I ended up knowing him through other
11 associations with other people later on on the police
12 department and later on in other things that were going
13 on around me.
14 Q. Did you have any personal dealings that
15 related to organized criminal activity with Mr. Cerone?
16 A. I would say yes, pretty much -- are we going
17 to get into some other areas now or -- I mean, do you
18 want me to expound on that?
19 Q. Sure why don't you expound on that.
20 A. Okay. When that crew in that case in
21 Kansas City, the one that he was convicted on, I had
22 moved into a position with these guys, at least a
23 majority of them, of a whole lot of trust. At that
24 particular time I was couriering a lot of money into
25 Chicago from out west.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Mr. Corbitt, just
3 THE WITNESS: Sure.
4 THE HEARING: You say when he was convicted.
5 I believe that you're referring to the conviction,
6 Jack Cerone and maybe Aiuppa and others out of
7 Kansas City that had to do with skimming out of a
8 Las Vegas hotel. Is that right?
9 THE WITNESS: Correct.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
11 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Do you know approximately
13 A. The trial?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. I know exactly when it was.
17 A. The trial was in -- it was in 1985. They were
18 convicted and sentenced in early 1986 in -- well they
19 were convicted. They weren't sentenced until later in
21 They were convicted two weeks before the
22 Super Bowl in 1986. And the reason I know this is
23 because I had purchased eleven Super Bowl tickets for
24 these gentlemen to go to the Super Bowl only they
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. Who were these gentlemen?
2 A. All the guys that were on trial that were in
3 the Kansas City case, which some of them are in the
4 picture and some of them aren't. Most of them are in
5 the picture.
6 Q. Did you have any interactions with any of
7 these individuals, like Jack Cerone, around this time,
8 around the time of the Super Bowl? Do you recall
9 specifically?
10 A. Yes, I did. One of the -- I said, as I
11 explained before, one of my functions was to courier
12 money from different states and, in some cases,
13 different countries that came into the United States and
14 that came into Chicago to these people.
15 Q. During the trial -- this is kind of unique --
16 but I was sent on a trip to Salt Lake City. I went to
17 Salt City with two other people and picked up a
18 million-and-a-half dollars in cash that was brought to
19 Salt Lake City from Las Vegas.
20 And then it was unwrapped and rewrapped and
21 brought in on a commercial airliner from Salt Lake City
22 to Chicago and then brought -- and it was to be used for
23 these gentlemen that were on trial families and to pay
25 I specifically dropped off several bundles,
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
68
1 one in Melrose Park, one downtown Chicago. But the
2 money was split up and it was taken to these different
3 locations. That was only on one occasion that I brought
4 money in from Las Vegas. This was during the trial.
5 Q. What did you understand Jack Cerone's position
7 A. My opinion is, is that he was an underboss,
8 and on one occasion for a short period of time he was
9 the boss.
10 Q. During what period of time was he the boss?
11 A. I think he was the boss maybe in the early
12 sixties to the mid sixties, and then after that period
13 of time he was more or less just a confidant of
14 Tony Accardo's and an underboss.
15 Q. Let me show you another photograph after I
16 show it to Mr. Carmell (handing to counsel). It's
17 Exhibit 164C.
18 And Mr. Vaira ( handing to the hearing
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, sir.
21 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) What is Exhibit 164C?
22 A. That's a photograph of Jack Cerone and another
23 individual.
24 Q. What time period is this? Where was this
25 photograph taken? Let's start there.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 A. This photograph was taken at Lexington Medical
2 Facility in the Federal Bureau of Prison Systems.
3 Q. When Mr. Cerone was in jail?
5 Q. How is it that we have a copy of this
6 photograph?
7 A. I gave it to you.
9 A. I received it from Jack about three months
11 Q. Where did you receive it?
12 A. I received it here in Coleman FCI.
13 Q. So he sent you a picture of himself in prison.
14 A. Right. And the other kid. There's a reason
15 -- there was a reason why he sent it to me.
17 A. Okay. The gentleman that's in the picture
18 with him was with me ten years -- eight years ago in
19 Latuna, Texas, in the federal prison. And in my travels
20 -- the Bureau of Prisons puts you through a lot of
21 travels. In my travels through the system, I was in
22 El Reno, Oklahoma, and I found out that this other
23 gentleman in the photograph was on his way to Lexington.
24 He had been there with Jackie previous to that.
25 And I had a conversation with him. I told him
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 tell him I said hello, and when you get there, you know,
2 if you can do anything for him, I understand he's sick,
3 take care of him. Do what you can for him.
4 Well when he got there, he became
5 Jack Cerone's orderly and was taking care of everything,
6 wheelchair, bathing him. Everything that he needed,
7 this kid was taking care of.
8 When he got down here -- he's now here with
9 me. When he got down here with me -- this was back
10 before Jack died -- he wrote Jack a letter and said I'm
11 here with Mike, you know, well --
12 And so he sent him a picture with a note to my
13 attention. That's how I got the picture.
14 Q. So this picture came with a note?
15 A. Yeah.
17 A. From Jack.
18 Q. What did the note say?
19 A. The note said I'm very sick, and I believe
20 that I'm going home soon and I'm going home to die.
21 Q. Did you keep a copy of that note?
23 Q. We don't have it right here.
24 A. No.
25 MR. BOSTWICK: I move admission of
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
71
1 Exhibit 164C.
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: It's admitted.
3 (GEB Attroney's Exhibit Number 164C admitted
4 into evidence)
5 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) I believe the only two
6 other individuals on that photograph, which is Exhibit
7 -- I'm now referring to Exhibit 6A -- that we haven't
8 spoken about are individuals marked Number 9 and 10.
9 I'll start with 9. Who's that?
10 A. Number is Dominic Dibella.
11 Q. Can you describe who he is?
12 A. Dominic Dibella is -- was, he's passed away.
13 He's a former boss of the north side. He was, previous
14 to him passing, was Vince Solano's boss.
16 A. Number 10 is Joey Aiuppa.
17 Q. Who is he?
18 A. Joey Aiuppa was probably Number 2 or Number 3
19 man for the last -- oh, until he went to prison, for the
20 last ten years before he went to prison.
21 Q. Did you have interactions with these
22 individuals at a restaurant called Meo's?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. What's the location of Meo's?
25 A. Meo's is on -- I believe it's Lake Street and
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72
1 Addison.
2 Q. What period of time did you have this
4 A. I started going to Meo's on Addison in the
5 late -- maybe early seventies, late sixties.
6 They previously had a place in Chicago on
7 Irving. I think it was up -- or Harlem and Irving area
8 called the Nordic House or the Norway House -- the
9 Norwood House, The Norwood House. That place -- they
10 moved out of there and moved out to Addison.
11 I had previously gone to the one in Chicago
12 and I continued to go to the one out in Addison.
13 Q. The one out in the Addison, how long did you
15 A. I went to it for about -- Joe Testa was killed
16 in '81. I went to it up until about '81.
18 A. From the late sixties, early seventies until
19 '81.
20 Q. So it could have been a little longer than '81
21 or a little less than '81.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. But early eighties, approximately.
25 Q. When and under what circumstances would you go
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
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1 to Meo's?
2 A. There was a golf course close by there called
3 Brook Wood County Club, and a lot guys hung around
4 there, a lot of these particular guys. And a good
5 friend of mine Joe Testa was a member of Brook Wood and
6 had a home on Brook Wood, and he used to go there and
7 golf with some of these guys who he knew. After they
8 would golf, they would all go to Meo's and they'd eat
9 supper. It was just like a guy's thing, hang around
10 type thing.
11 Q. Joe Testa was involved in organized crime,
12 too, you've testified.
14 Q. Continue.
15 A. Wednesday nights at Meo's was, like, a special
16 night. When I say "special," you know, maybe one or two
17 weeks out of the month, you know, Aiuppa, Accardo and a
18 few other guys would show up in there and they would
19 have dinner with four or five, six guys. This was
20 another thing that occurred there, like every month.
21 Q. This was on Wednesday nights?
22 A. Wednesday night was the -- you know, was the
23 night that he usually appeared.
24 Q. And this is throughout that period.
25 A. Yes. He was very close with the Meo family.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. Let me show what I've marked as GEB Attorney
2 Exhibit Number 178 and ask you to describe what that is.
3 A. That's an interior layout of Meo's restaurant.
4 Q. Who prepared that?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. What time period is that accurate for?
7 A. That would be the time period that we just
9 Q. That's a reasonably accurate depiction of that
10 scene?
11 A. As best I could recall.
12 Q. Describe the scene and where these individuals
13 -- first of all, you ate with these individuals during
14 this period of time?
16 Q. Approximately, how many times?
17 A. Twenty-five, thirty times.
18 Q. Can you describe the scene at Meo's restaurant
19 on Wednesday nights, where these individuals ate and
21 A. There was a full dining area as you walked in
22 the door with a partition and then another dining area
23 on the side. There was a bar, which would be on the
24 right of the sketch. The kitchen was in the rear at the
25 left. And then they had a private dining room which
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 held I think maybe up to thirty people that was on the
2 right of the rear of the building.
3 Q. That's in the upper right-hand side of
6 Q. How would somebody get invited to that dinner?
7 A. Depending on the circumstances, depending on
8 who was in there, depending on what they were
9 discussing, there was only a certain crew that used that
10 dining room. I mean, you had to be invited. You
11 couldn't just walk in there and take a seat and eat.
12 You had to be invited into that room.
13 Q. It's a sealed-off and closed-off room?
14 A. They shut the door, and they would bring the
15 carts -- they would bring food carts up to the door,
16 open the door, bring them in and then shut the door
17 again.
18 Q. Was anybody at the door?
19 A. There was -- always there was somebody at the
20 door. When Accardo was there, Sam Carlisi would be at
21 the door.
22 Their drivers. A lot of these older guys had
23 drivers and they would be on the door. They would eat
24 in the kitchen or they would eat afterwards. They
25 wouldn't eat when he was eating.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. Would you generally on these occasions that
2 you went there, would you go alone or with someone?
3 A. On a lot occasions I was there with Joe Testa.
4 On other occasions I was there with Sal Bastone. On a
5 couple of occasions I recall going there with a guy that
6 I had met and knew from the street, also, who was a part
7 of one of these crews, a guy named Vincent Inserro. I
8 went there a couple of times with him.
9 Q. Was there any chance that the individuals
10 dining and in that room while you were there on those
11 approximately twenty-five occasions, is there any chance
12 that those individuals would not be close associates of
13 organized crime?
14 A. There's no way. There's no way you could be
15 in there when that guy was in there unless you were in
16 some way associated with organized crime.
17 Q. Did you ever see money passed in that room?
19 Q. How did that occur? Describe that.
20 A. Well he usually sat -- when he was in the
21 room --
22 Q. You're talking about Tony Accardo?
23 A. I'm talking about Tony Accardo. When
24 Tony Accardo was in the room, he usually sat facing the
25 doorway, off to the right of the table. And then he
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1 would have -- he had a couple of good friends that
2 really were not OC guys, or organized crimes guys, that
3 were guys that he liked to be with, that were there with
4 him. Everybody knew who they were and they were there.
5 Then you would have other guys at the table.
6 And sometimes during the meal, you'd see two
7 or three guys get you, and they'd have their sportcoats
8 on and they'd go up there. They'd reach in their
9 pocket, take out a brown envelope or something, and you
10 knew what was in it in, I mean, you know, and they'd
11 pass the envelope to him, and he'd take it under the
12 table and put it in his pocket. When his pockets got
13 too full, he'd hand it to somebody else to take, guys
14 that were with him, guys that were close.
15 And then once in a while, he'd call over Sam
16 or he'd call over whoever drove him and give it all to
17 them and they'd take it out to the car. It was like a
18 wedding. It was like a boast.
19 Q. When you say "like a boast," what does that
20 mean?
21 A. Like a gift at a wedding.
22 Q. What was the size of the crowd in the dining
23 room on a given night that you would be there? What was
24 the range?
25 A. You mean the outside dining room?
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1 Q. No. I'm talking still about the inside dining
2 room now, about the range of the number of people.
3 A. I would say the maximum people that were ever
4 in there were maybe fifteen or twenty people. I never
5 saw more than that in there. And the tables, like I
6 said, were hold thirty people.
7 Q. Did you ever see Vince Solano in there?
10 A. I can't recall if I ever saw Al Pilotto there.
11 Q. I'm going to show you an individual here on
12 Exhibit 6. This is Exhibit 6C. Can you identify that
15 Q. Who's that?
17 Q. Who is Jimmy Caporale?
18 A. I know Jimmy Caporale as something to do with
19 the union and also I know him of being around a lot of
20 these same people that we're talking about here.
21 Q. Did you ever see him in this back dining room
22 at Meo's?
24 Q. On approximately how many occasions?
25 A. Every four or five occasions he was there.
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1 Q. Had dinner with them there with Mr. Accardo
2 and others?
4 Q. Ever see him pass any money?
5 A. Absolutely. On at least three occasions I
6 seen him take a package to Accardo.
7 Q. At this restaurant.
8 A. At this restaurant.
9 Q. The individual that I'm going to show you now
10 is behind -- it's a photograph behind Exhibit 6L. Ever
11 seen that individual?
12 A. Yeah, I have. Yeah, I have.
13 Q. Do you know who that is?
14 A. I think I know who it is.
15 Q. Can you tell me who you think that is?
16 A. Is that Ernie Kumerow?
17 Q. Well tell me who you think that is.
18 A. I think it's Ernie Kumerow.
20 A. That's his son-in-law, Tony Accardo's
21 son-in-law.
22 Q. Have you ever seen that picture before?
23 A. No, never.
24 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Kumerow at Meo's?
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1 Q. Approximately how may occasions?
2 A. At least three or four occasions. I've seen
3 him other places, though, but that's --
4 Q. Where else have you seen him?
5 A. I've seen him at his home, at Accardo's home
6 in Palm Desert, California, I've seen him on the golf
7 course at Brook Wood, I've seen him on the golf in
8 Palm Desert, California.
9 Q. Now apart from being a son-in-law of
10 Mr. Accardo, did you observe in any way that
11 Ernie Kumerow had a relationship with the Chicago
13 A. You know, what I knew about him, I knew that
14 he did have a relationship with other guys that were
15 around the outfit. As to what his personal involvement
16 was, I'm not sure about that.
17 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Kumerow passing any
18 money?
20 Q. Who were the other types of individuals that
21 Mr. Kumerow associated with who were in the Chicago
22 outfit?
23 A. One of the guys was Vince Solano that he was
24 around a lot, another guy was Pat Marcy that he was
25 around a lot, another guy was John Spano -- I mean,
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1 John Serpico was another guy that he was around quite a
2 bit, who, to my knowledge, are all members of organized
3 crime.
4 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that he was
5 associated with organized crime apart from his --
6 A. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. No doubt
8 Q. How about the individual who's in
9 GEB Attorney's Exhibit 6E; have you ever seen that
10 individual?
11 A. I sure have.
15 A. Bruno Caruso is some big officer with the
16 union and a street associate of -- or an associate of a
17 lot of guys in the different crews.
18 Q. Did you ever see him at Meo's?
19 A. I think I might have seen him there a couple
20 of times. I'm not absolutely positive.
21 Q. What types of places would you see
22 Bruno Caruso?
23 A. Bruno Caruso was a big Rush Street guy, hung
24 around on Rush Street on the north side, downtown, and I
25 seen him personally, you know, four or five times in a
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1 restaurant downtown called Counselor's Row.
2 Q. Let's get to that later.
3 When you say he's "a big Rush Street guy," do
4 you mean that he went out in the evenings to
6 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he hung around Rush Street a
7 lot. And I was down there on business or I was down
8 there on pleasure and I would run into him and see him.
9 Q. Did you ever see him associating with
10 individuals in organized crime?
11 A. Oh, sure.
12 Q. Who is that?
13 A. Angelo LaPietra, Vince Solano. I believe I
14 saw him a couple of times years ago with Al Pilotto.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: How about LaPietra;
16 where did you see him?
17 THE WITNESS: I seen him on Rush Street with
18 Angelo LaPietra.
19 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) What, at bars or
21 A. No. Primarily, they hung around at a couple
22 places, Faces, Sweetwater's, Harry's Cafe, those places
23 down there on Rush Street. I also seen him in
24 Elmwood Park a couple of times. Elmwood Park at a place
25 called LaCampannia. And he was with -- I'm trying to
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1 think of who I saw him there with. I can't remember who
2 it was right now, I did see him around.
3 Q. You mentioned Counselor's Row a couple of
4 times. Let me switch your focus to Counselor's Row.
5 I'll show you what has already -- well actually, this is
6 a new exhibit. This is Exhibit 168B.
7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Have we seen this
8 before?
9 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes, in a slightly different
10 form.
12 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) What is this exhibit?
13 A. That's an interior drawing sketch of the
14 interior of Counselor's Row, a restaurant on
15 LaSalle Street downtown.
16 Q. Who prepared this?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. Is this a reasonably accurate depiction of
19 Counselor's Row?
21 Q. During what period of time?
22 A. During the seventies and eighties.
23 MR. BOSTWICK: I move for its admission at
24 this time. This is 168B. We've had another one 168A.
25 THE HEARING OFFICER: We've had one like this
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1 before, so fine. It's admitted. We had something like
2 this before.
3 (GEB Attroney's Exhibit Number 168B admitted
4 into evidence)
5 MR. CARMELL: Did I understand him to say that
7 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, he said he drew it.
8 THE WITNESS: I drew it.
9 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Now, Mr. Corbitt, you
10 mentioned, also, the name Pat Marcy a few times. Who is
11 Pat Marcy?
12 A. Pat Marcy is the owner of an insurance company
13 in Chicago, and also, at the time I knew him one of the
14 -- probably one of the top guys in organized crime as
15 far as the politicians and the police and everything.
16 As far as major fixing was concerned, Pat Marcy took
17 care of it.
18 Q. During what period of time was this?
20 Q. What types of things -- you say "fixing".
22 Q. What types of things did he do?
23 A. Promotions, he made judges, zoning, boat
24 slips, apartments, traffic fixes, court fixes. Anything
25 you wanted fixed he took care of it.
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1 Q. What was the nature of your relationship with
2 Pat Marcy?
3 A. I was a very close associate of his for about
4 six or seven years. We had a mutual interest as far as
5 I was delivering large amounts of currency to him from
6 other people in OC, or organized crime.
7 We had a lot of personal experiences. I did
8 all the security in his new home, I provided the alarm
9 service. I did all the security in his son's home in
10 Burr Ridge. I did some wire taps for him.
11 Q. When you say "did some wire taps for him,"
12 what do you mean?
13 A. We wire taped some business associates -- an
14 attorney and a business associate that he thought might
15 be screwing him in a deal and we wired taped their
17 Q. Was this official police business?
19 Q. Did you use police equipment?
21 Q. During what period of time was this?
22 A. Mid seventies. Mid seventies and then again
24 Q. When was the last time you saw Pat Marcy?
25 A. The morning I was -- my bond was revoked in my
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1 case.
2 Q. When you were going to jail?
3 A. I had breakfast with him the morning I -- the
4 morning they revoked my bond, I had breakfast with him
5 at Counselor's Row and brought him a package.
6 Q. What was in the package?
7 A. Thirty-five thousand dollars.
8 Q. What was that for?
9 A. It was his end on something that I was given
10 as a messenger to deliver, and I knew what it was
11 because it wasn't wrapped up and I had it in
13 Q. So this is in 1987?
14 A. 1987, October 8th.
15 Q. You got a booth back in one corner of this
16 photograph. Describe the scene in Counselor's Row on --
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who gave you the money
18 to bring to him?
19 THE WITNESS: A gentle by the name of
20 Hy Larner.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: A bail bondsman?
22 THE WITNESS: No. A guy who ran all the
23 gambling in Central American.
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: I thought he was a bail
25 bondsman.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 THE WITNESS: No, no, you're talking about
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go ahead.
4 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Can you describe the scene
5 in Counselor's Row?
6 A. Counselor's Row was a street level restaurant
7 that was directly across from City Hall on
8 LaSalle Street. If you walked in through double-glass
9 doors, to the right were five or six phone booths. If
10 you walked in to your left, there was a stairway going
11 downstairs to a lower level. There was also a bar and a
12 restaurant down there.
13 Behind the stairway was a private booth that
14 was -- nobody sat in. It was specifically there for
15 Pat Marcy's use and John D'Arco and Fred Roti, the
16 Alderman of the First Ward, and several other
17 politicians used it. But it was primarily there for
19 It had a telephone at the booth. It was all
20 decorated in pictures of former mayors and politicians
21 and -- it was kind of cute.
22 Q. The indication on GEB Attorney Exhibit 168B,
23 that booth is in the lower left-hand corner?
25 Q. Did you ever meet with Pat Marcy there?
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1 A. Absolutely.
3 A. He was there every day, five days week.
4 Q. During what period of time?
5 A. I would say from the mid seventies until -- I
6 believe he was there for a short period after I came in.
7 Q. Ever conduct outfit related business in or
8 around Counselor's Row with Pat Marcy?
10 Q. Tell us how you would generally conduct that
11 business with Pat Marcy.
12 A. Pat Marcy was pretty much privy to everything
13 that was going on in the city i. e., vending, juice
14 loan, prostitution, everything that was going on. He
15 knew what was going on and --
16 Q. You're talking about organized crime.
17 A. Organized crime. And I believe that he
18 ultimately got a piece of everything that was going on
19 because he was the major fixer, and that's what his --
21 Anyway, some of the people who I would be
22 assigned to deliver stuff to, as I told you before, I
23 would deliver to Pat Marcy, and then ultimately I would
24 -- I ended delivering it to them directly.
25 One of the people who I delivered things to
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89
1 never let you come to his home, and that was Gus Alex
2 who lived on Marine Drive, someplace downtown. So when
3 there was a package for him, and there was every month,
4 that I was to bring it downtown. I would take it to
5 Pat Marcy's booth. Pat Marcy would pick up the phone
7 Gus would come downtown and -- he wouldn't
8 come into the restaurant. He'd go into the parking
9 garage. Then I would go into the parking garage and
10 take him his package, and he'd get in his car and leave.
11 And many other things. Anytime there was any
12 kind of problem that anybody associated with OC had with
13 the City of Chicago, the actual -- the alderman or
14 anything like that, I would bring messages down, I would
15 bring things other down. I would make a phone call, get
16 it handled. I would, you know, pick up checks for
17 legitimate businesses, pick them up early and stuff like
18 that.
19 Don't forget now. Pat was getting a package
20 every month, and I would be the guy who brought him his.
21 We became, not friends, fairly close, because he had me
22 do a lot things that I don't think he would have let
23 anybody else do unless he was close to them.
24 As I said before, I supervised and installed
25 all the alarms in his new home. He was very paranoid.
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1 I mean, he had everything high tech you could get in his
2 home. I also did his son's home.
3 I also had previously supervised some closed
4 circuit TV work in his other home up in DesPlaines. So
5 we were close enough that he trusted me to do that, and
6 plus he trusted to do a lot of other things, too.
7 Q. Did these conversations relating to organized
8 crime in Counselor's Row generally take place in front
9 of people at that booth?
10 A. On some occasions, depending on who was in the
11 booth. In this sketch these booths that I have that are
12 behind Booth 1 are a little closer than they actually
13 were. They were, like, back, maybe by the second --
14 there wasn't any real close contact to that booth.
15 But on some occasions, one of my -- when I
16 brought -- we had two briefcases that were identical.
17 And when I would bring down his briefcase and see him,
18 he would know the day I was coming and he would bring
19 his and we would just switch briefcases. I know it
20 sounds a little corny, but that's what we did. I would
21 bring a briefcase in, set it by him, pick up the other
22 briefcase and leave.
23 Well on some occasions, if the wrong person
24 was at the booth and he didn't want to do it, he'd give
25 you the high sign. There was a door that led into
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1 another high-rise building next door to Counselor's Row
2 where there was a bank of elevators. Pat Marcy's
3 offices and John D'Arco's offices for the First Ward in
4 Chicago were in that building. I think they were on the
5 fifth or sixth floor. I'm not sure.
6 He would give you the high sign, you'd bring
7 the briefcase, come out in the hallway, you know, you'd
8 do it real secret, you know, and come back inside. If
9 it was something where you needed any kind of long
10 discussion, then you would go up to his office.
11 But primarily, a lot of business was conducted
12 at that table.
13 Q. A lot of legitimate business was conducted at
14 that table?
15 A. No. I mean, legitimate business maybe. I was
16 never privy to any of that, if there was any. I'm sure
17 there may have been, but --
18 Q. What type of job did Pat Marcy hold with
19 respect to the city? Are you aware of any?
20 A. I think maybe at some time he might have been
21 a committeeman, but I don't think he ever held a job
22 with the city or a political job. He was just a major
23 fixer. He was just a downtown guy.
24 Q. Did you ever observe Pat Marcy get up from
25 that booth and discuss matters with individuals
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2 A. Oh, sure. I've seen him get up. There would
3 be somebody sitting in another booth, and he'd go, you
4 know, and sit in the booth with them and have a
5 conversation, then come back an sit down at the table
6 and leave people sitting there. I mean --
7 Q. Was that a pattern that indicated anything to
8 you?
9 A. I know that he was very paranoid about what
10 was going on. We were constantly checking his phone. I
11 mean, he had people checking, not just that phone, but
12 every phone he had, his cars, everything. He was
13 constantly getting his stuff all swept. He was very
14 paranoid.
15 Q. You mentioned Bruno Caruso. You saw him in
18 Q. -- on a number of occasions. Can you
19 describe those occasions, what happened?
20 A. On several occasions that Bruno came in -- and
21 I saw Bruno and Frank in there both.
22 Q. Who's Frank?
23 A. Frank Caruso. On several occasions I seen
24 them both in there. I've seen conversations with
25 Pat Marcy from some sort of -- I'd be in a booth over
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1 here. I'd move over to another table if somebody said,
2 you know, I'm going to conduct some business or
4 And just observing, I would -- I seen
5 Bruno Caruso pass an envelope to Pat Marcy. I seen
6 Pat Marcy take it, stick it in his pocket. On a couple
7 of occasions, I saw Frank Caruso do the same thing.
8 And I would say that I've seen them in -- in
9 all the times that I was down there, I seen them in
10 there maybe fifteen or twenty times.
11 Q. That's Bruno Caruso you're talking about?
12 A. Bruno Caruso and Frank Caruso on different
13 occasions. They weren't always together. Occasionally,
14 they were together.
15 Q. What's the nature of their relationship, if
16 you know, family relationship or whatever?
18 Q. Right.
20 Q. Did you see Frank Caruso on other occasions?
21 A. Sure. I seen Frank Caruso at different social
22 events, I saw Frank Caruso on Rush Street, I saw him in
23 Chinatown, I saw him in Greektown, you know, I saw him
24 around quite a bit in Chicago.
25 Q. What was your understanding of Frank Caruso's
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1 participation or association with organized crime?
2 A. The knowledge that I had is that he was a
3 juice man; that he loaned money and collected money and,
4 you know, he was in the juice business. I did know that
5 he had some affiliation with the union, but I wasn't
6 aware of what union it was.
7 Q. Did you ever see him with any individuals
8 associated with organized crime other than Pat Marcy as
10 A. I've seen him with Angelo also. You're
11 talking about Frank?
13 A. I saw Angelo with -- Angelo LaPietra with him,
14 I saw him with Johnny Monteleone on many occasions. As
15 a matter of fact, I was them together in a restaurant
16 before I came in out south called Artie G's. I think it
17 was in Palos Heights -- Palos Hills. I seen him with
19 Q. Artie G's. What was that restaurant?
20 A. Artie G's is a restaurant owned by Artie Greco
21 that was at, I think, 123rd and Harlem or
22 127th and Harlem in Palos Heights. It was a hangout.
23 It was -- a lot of guys hung out there.
24 Q. Did you ever meet an individual named
25 Robert Cooley?
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. Who's he?
3 A. Robert Cooley is a former attorney. I don't
5 Q. In what context did you meet him?
6 A. I met him in Counselor's Row maybe thirty
7 times. I mean, I didn't meet him thirty times. I've
8 seen him in there. I met him a couple of times.
9 Q. Do you understand that he had any relationship
11 A. He was always with the boys. My understanding
12 is that he did.
13 Q. Do you know what types of things he did?
14 A. I think he was -- he was an attorney. He did
15 a lot of legal work. He did a lot of legal work in the
16 city, he did a lot of legal work in the suburb. As a
17 matter of fact, I think he was -- his offices were in
18 the same office with Congressman Lipinski.
19 Q. How about Leo Caruso; do you know an
20 individual named Leo Caruso?
21 A. I knew Leo Caruso, but I don't know really a
22 lot about him. I've seen him around over the years. I
23 seen him on Rush Street. I can't think of a lot about
24 Leo.
25 Q. Do you know what relationship, if any, he has
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1 with Frank or Bruno?
2 A. I believe he's their cousin. Cousin.
3 Q. Do you know if he's involved with organized
5 A. I've seen him with people. You know, I can't
6 say that he is absolutely involved. I seen him with
7 different people.
8 Q. How about Dominic Palermo?
9 A. Dominic "Tootsie" Palermo?
11 A. I've known Dominic for thirty years. Yeah, I
12 know Dominic very well.
13 Q. Do you know if he had any relationship with
14 organized crime?
15 A. Absolutely. He's one of Al Pilotto's guys.
16 He was with Angelo LaPietra. He was with a lot of
18 Q. Can you give us some examples?
19 A. Well examples of just seeing and hearing and
20 knowing what I was told by other people, you know, I
21 don't know if you want that. I know that there were
22 insinuations that he was a very capable guy; that he did
23 -- may have had done some killing for some people in --
24 did some hits years ago.
25 Q. How about personal interactions with respect
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1 to criminal activities; did you have any personal
2 interactions with Dominic Palermo?
3 A. No. No. I knew who he is. I've seen him in
4 my life maybe twenty, thirty times.
5 Q. Nick Guzzino. You mentioned him earlier in
6 your testimony. What did you understand his
7 relationship with organized crime to be?
8 A. I understood that he was a member of
9 Al Pilotto's crew, Al Tocco's crew. He was with that
10 whole group out of the Heights.
11 Q. How did you understand that?
12 A. Well just from being around him. I know he
13 was with Chris Messino. I was around him on several
14 occasions at different places where had he not been with
15 them guys, he wouldn't have been there.
16 Q. But it's not a situation like Vince Solano or
17 Al Pilotto or James Caporale where you actually saw
18 money passed --
20 Q. -- or actually passed money back and forth.
22 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that
23 Nick Guzzino and Dominic Palermo, for instance, were
24 involved with organized crime?
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2 A. Frank DeMonte I've known for twenty-five
3 years. Frank DeMonte was also with Angelo LaPietra. I
4 didn't know that he as involved with the union, but I
5 know Frank DeMonte.
6 Q. What types of things did you understand him to
8 A. He was a juice collector. He collected juice
9 money and put money on the street.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who's this you're
11 talking about?
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who's this you're
14 talking about?
15 THE WITNESS: Frank DeMonte.
16 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Did you ever have any
17 personal hand-to-hand monetary interaction with him?
19 Q. How did you understand that this is what Frank
20 DeMonte's position was in the outfit?
21 A. Just from being around and interacting with
22 him and hearing things that were going on.
23 THE WITNESS: Dwight, is there any chance to
25 MR. BOSTWICK: Yeah. Why don't we take a few
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 minutes and --
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let's take about a ten
3 minute break.
4 (Recess from 11:40 a. m. to 12:00 noon)
5 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Mr. Corbitt, we were
6 talking about Pat Marcy and some of the Carusos, I
7 think, when we left off. Let me ask you an additional
8 question about Pat Marcy.
9 I'm going to show you Exhibit 179 and ask you
11 A. This is a private security pass to his home
12 in Hinsdale.
13 Q. To Pat Marcy's home?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Where was that?
16 A. It was in Gramau Mill Subdivision in Hinsdale,
17 right off of York Road and Ogden. This was 4/5/87,
18 dated 4/5/87.
19 Q. How far in advance of your going to jail was
20 that?
21 A. I went in October. That was May.
22 Q. How is it that we received this document?
24 MR. BOSTWICK: I'd move admission of
25 Exhibit 179.
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100
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We'll admit it.
2 (GEB Attorney's Exhibit Number 179 admitted
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: This is a private
6 THE WITNESS: Pass. It's a gated community.
7 Every time you came in, you had to have one of those to
8 get in and out. You couldn't get out without it. I
10 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Now Fred Roti, you
11 mentioned him in your testimony, but not gotten into him
12 at all. What his relationship, if any, to Pat Marcy?
13 A. Best friend.
14 Q. During what period of time?
15 A. For twenty years, twenty-five years, during
16 the seventies and eighties. And I believe Fred Roti and
17 him were indicted together in a case, and Fred Roti was
18 convicted and Pat died during the trial.
19 Q. Did you observe whether or not Fred Roti was
22 Q. With Pat Marcy?
23 A. Pat Marcy.
24 Q. Did you ever know him to be involved in
25 organized crime related activities with Pat Marcy or
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2 A. Not really, just -- I know he was associated
3 with him. He was with him all the time. I mean, I
4 don't know of anything directly relating him to
6 Q. Now as to Frank Caruso, you mentioned that you
7 had seen associate with Johnny Monteleone.
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And who was Johnny Monteleone?
10 A. Johnny Monteleone is -- was a boss on the
11 south side, southwest side, and I -- and he was involved
12 with me personally in a couple of operations for two
13 years previous to me leaving the job on the police
15 Q. What types of jobs?
16 A. He was running a casino. He ran a casino in
17 Willow Springs, an illegal gambling casino at Archer and
18 Willow Springs Road for about a year-and-a-half before
19 it was turned over to somebody else. The casino stayed,
20 just the management changed. It was just a different
21 crew moving in.
22 Q. Did you ever see Bruno Caruso with
23 Johnny Monteleone?
25 Q. Approximately, when and under what
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1 circumstances?
2 A. It was some time in the late sixties, early
3 seventies at a place called Harry's Cafe on Rush Street.
4 Maybe several others places, but I can't recall
6 Q. What time frame?
7 A. In the mid seventies to the late seventies.
8 Q. Now Jimmy DiForti or James Diforti, do you
9 know that individual?
12 A. I know him from being around other people that
13 I was familiar with and just different descriptions of
14 what he did from other people and what I saw. He was
15 very closely associated, also, with Johnny Monteleone.
16 Q. Did you know of him to have any relationship
17 to organized crime?
19 Q. What was that?
20 A. He was a juice man and he was the money man
21 behind putting juice loans on the street.
22 Q. During what period of time?
23 A. Seventies into the eighties, mid seventies
24 into the early eighties.
25 Q. Ever meet him personally?
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. What types of experiences have you had with
3 him?
4 A. No real experiences. I think I met him on
5 several occasions at Faces on Rush Street. I think I
6 met him in Solano's kid's restaurant, Billy's, on Rush
7 Street. I know I met him maybe five or six times total.
8 Q. Did you see interact with members or
9 associates of organized crime?
10 A. Absolutely.
12 A. Vince Solano, Johnny Apes --
13 Johnny Monteleone, Angelo LaPietra. That's about all I
14 can think of right now.
15 Q. Could there have been others?
16 A. I'm sure there are.
17 Q. Now you mentioned Joe Testa. Joe Testa,
20 Q. Can you describe a little more fully for us
21 what the nature of your relationship was with Joe Testa?
22 A. I met Joe Testa in the -- in the late sixties,
23 and after that meeting we became very close, I mean, all
24 most to the situation of brothers. He took care of a
25 lot of things for me as far as my family was concerned.
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1 He was a very, very wealthy individual. We
2 hung together, we hung out together, we traveled
3 together, we went through a lot of tragedies together,
4 and he was -- during that time period until he was
5 killed, he was my best friend.
6 Q. What did you understand that Mr. Testa did
7 with respect to organized crime?
8 A. In an early period of his life, Joe was the
9 owner of a savings and loan. Through this savings and
10 loan he was able to facilitate the exchange of cash for
11 things that were -- you were able to legitimize, such as
12 properties.
13 And several major outfit people made purchases
14 and bought stuff through him and his savings and loan,
15 large parcels of land, apartment complexes and stuff,
16 and they did it with cash through him.
17 Q. Did there come a time when Joe Testa got
18 himself in a bind with the mob?
19 A. A very serious one. Back in the mid seventies
20 he was being pressured to pay back a large amount of
21 money that was loaned to somebody who had subsequently
23 His theory and thoughts were, the guy's dead;
24 the loan's dead. I don't owe this money; I'm not paying
25 this money.
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1 Well he expressed those feelings to the
2 collectors, and everything he had started blowing up.
3 They blew up his restaurant, they blew up his home, they
4 blew up his office, they planted a bomb on his car, and
5 he was unable to, you know, get rid of this problem. We
6 tried. We tried very hard.
9 Q. What types of things did you do?
10 A. I went to people that I knew, I went to people
11 that I felt could take care of the problem. I went with
12 him on one occasion to -- whom he was also very close to
13 -- Tony Accardo. He golfed with him. Tony Accardo was
14 on his boat. We took him fishing, we took his wife and
15 him fishing in Florida, we took him and other associates
16 fishing to Bimini, which is an island just off of
17 Florida. Joe golfed with him and --
18 Q. So you went to Tony Accardo?
19 A. We went to Tony Accardo. We had a meeting
20 with him at 3:00 in the morning at a restaurant in
22 Q. Who was there?
23 A. Tony Accardo was there, Sam Carlisi was there,
24 myself, Joe, and I believe -- I'm not sure, I believe
25 that Joey Aiuppa was there also.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Q. Approximately, when was this?
4 A. At the meeting -- I was initially left out in
5 the car. I was in the car. I was in the car for about
6 an hour, and then Sam Carlisi came out and he said come
9 He said he wants you inside.
10 He said he. He meant Tony. So I came inside.
11 Q. You understood him to mean Tony Accardo.
12 A. Well, yeah, Tony Accardo.
13 So I came inside, and he said what are you
14 sitting out in the car for?
15 I said, well I didn't think I was invited.
16 He said, no, you're invited. Come in here.
17 So I sat down. They were sitting around the
18 table. They were just drinking coffee, and Joe
19 explained his problem.
20 His thoughts on the matter were this.
22 A. Mr. Accardo said, listen, Joe, you're my
23 friend, you've been my friend. I've known you for a lot
24 of years, and you don't owe me nothing. You owe me
25 nothing. But you apparently owe somebody something and
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 it's out of my control. You got two choices.
2 And Joe said what do you mean I got two
3 choices.
4 He said you got two choices. You pay them or
6 Q. And what did you understand that to mean?
8 And he said I can't do anything for you. I
9 don't want to discuss this again. And that was it. We
11 Q. Did anything subsequently happen to Mr. Testa?
12 A. In June of '81 -- June of '80', '81, I'm not
13 exactly correct on the date. I think it was '81. It
14 might have been '80. After this occurred he had a major
15 heart attack and the doctor scheduled him for open heart
16 surgery.
17 In the interim, he got better and he decided
18 to take a trip. So he went out of the country for a
19 month. He went to Egypt and Greece and Europe, all over
21 He returned to the United States and he called
22 me at 3:00 in the morning when he got in and told me to
23 come to Florida, he was going to have a welcome home
24 party. He had a four million dollar home in Florida
25 right on the ocean, a beautiful place.
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1 And as he -- the following morning --
2 I told him, Joe, I can't come down there. At
3 that particular time I had his girlfriend's daughter
4 staying at my house in Chicago. So I said there's no
5 way I can come down, I got to stay. I'll come down in a
7 That next afternoon at about 4:00 in the
8 afternoon I received a call from his secretary that Joe
9 had been blown up in his car at a golf course in
10 Fort Lauderdale, Florida, Tamarac Golf Course, which is
11 right outside of Fort Lauderdale. He subsequently died
12 three days later. He was blown to pieces.
13 Q. Let me show you what has been marked as
14 GEB Attorney's Exhibit 57. It's a couple of news
15 articles. Can I get you to take a look at those?
16 A. Yeah. These are articles in regards to the --
17 his killing.
19 A. I think one of them is the Sun Times. They're
20 all from the Sun Times. These are all from the
21 Sun -- Sun Times and the Tribune.
22 Q. How did our office receive these?
23 A. I gave them to you.
24 Q. Look at the last page of this document. I got
25 a couple of markings on it. Could you read the first
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109
1 sentence. I'm sorry. The -- yeah, the first sentence.
2 Q. "Willow Springs Police Chief Michael Corbitt
3 and John Hinchy, Deputy Chief and Detective for the
4 Chicago Police Department, inherit a hundred and
5 twenty-seven thousand five hundred dollars each in the
6 will of Joseph Testa, slain businessman and reputed
7 associate of Chicago mobsters."
8 Q. Did you, in fact, receive that money from
10 A. That ain't even a small percentage. They were
11 the wrong figures.
12 Q. So that's a portion of the money you received?
13 A. That was a very small portion of what I
15 Q. How about the other highlight; it says the man
16 was torn up. Do you see that --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- on the right side of the column?
20 Q. Could you read that? This is a quote from you
22 A. "The man was torn up by the persistent rumors
23 of mob connection. Corbitt said just because of the
24 Italian extraction and he ate in the same places that
25 these mobsters did, he was reputed to be in mob circles.
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1 Mr. Testa was a hard working, self-made man. He said
2 there were no mob ties."
3 Q. Is that true?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Why did you tell the reporter that?
6 A. What was I going to say? What was I going to
7 say, Joe Testa was all mobbed up? I mean, he got killed
8 and he's all mobbed up. No. I said what I thought I
9 should say.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well it wouldn't look
11 too good for a policeman getting a gift from a mobster
12 and saying, yeah, I knew he was a mobster. Is that what
13 you're saying?
14 THE WITNESS: Right.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Tell me about Hinchy.
16 Hinchy was in the Chicago Police. Am I right?
17 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
18 MR. CARMELL: What date is this, these
19 articles?
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Carmell, I'm reading
22 MR. CARMELL: I'm just trying to find out what
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm trying to find out,
25 too, but -- no, that's not it. It says, "The second
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 blast in two day."
2 Oh, here. I have it right here. I have it
3 right here. All right. These are -- it looks like
4 they're -- is this one article?
5 MR. BOSTWICK: No. There are two separate
7 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. Sunday's
8 Sun Times, June 28, 1980-something. They all run
9 together, so they're, like, two or three days apart. So
11 THE WITNESS: I think it was '80 or '81. I'm
12 not sure if t was '80 or '81.
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well we should be able
14 to find that out.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: What relationship did he
18 MR. BOSTWICK: We could probably find that out
19 through Nexus.
20 THE WITNESS: Hinchy was a good friend. He
21 just traveled with him in Europe previous to -- he was
22 at his home when he was slain.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: He was down here when he
25 THE WITNESS: Yeah, he was -- he didn't feel
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 like playing golf that day.
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
3 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) This comment that just
4 because of his Italian extraction and he ate in the same
5 places these mobsters did, that he was reputed to be in
6 mob circles. Can you expand on why -- on whether you
7 heard that type of commentary before?
8 A. What do you mean whether I heard it before?
9 Q. Well what is this -- why did you say this?
10 A. Well because, you know, anytime somebody gets
11 accused -- some Italian guy gets accused of something,
12 they say, well, you know, just because of my Italian
13 extraction, I got to be all mobbed up.
14 You know, I know a lot of guys in these crews
15 that weren't Italian. They were Irish, they were
16 Jewish, they were Polish. I don't think it has anything
17 to do with Italian.
18 Q. From this experience with Mr. Testa's death
19 and other experiences, did you form an opinion of how
20 dangerous it is for a mob associate not to do the mob's
21 bidding?
22 A. Absolutely. And I know from other experiences
23 that went on during this time period and other time
24 periods where wannabes and associates and guys who were
25 around these creeps, they'll kill you in a New York
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1 second. They don't care nothing about you. It's all
2 what you got in your wallet.
3 Q. Is it possible in your experience for some of
4 these individuals who were involved with the union, who
5 you testified are associated with organized crime, to be
6 -- to not follow directions from the mob?
7 A. Rephrase that again. Is it --
8 Q. Would it be possible from your experience for
9 some of these individuals, like Vince Solano, who were
10 in the mob or associated with the mob, to fail to do the
11 mob's bidding in their union positions?
12 A. Absolutely not. There's no way they could get
13 away with it. Who put them in there. Why are they
14 there to start with.
15 MR. CARMELL: Is that a question or is that
16 his answer?
17 THE WITNESS: That's a statement.
18 MR. CARMELL: Okay. Based on your knowledge
20 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
21 MR. CARMELL: Okay.
22 MR. BOSTWICK: Well we have cross-examination
23 coming. Right?
24 MR. CARMELL: Yeah, it's coming.
25 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Now, Mr. Corbitt, let me
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1 show you Exhibit Number 21 -- I'm sorry -- 20 and 21.
2 Well before I do, the statement that you just
3 made, is your basis for that statement your association
4 with the union you had or is it your association with
6 A. My association with organized crime. I really
7 had no association with this union.
8 Q. Let me show you Exhibits 20 and 21, and I'm
9 just going to tell you that Exhibit -- I believe these
10 both have been stipulated to. Exhibit 20 is an
11 indictment, and you can take a look at that, and
12 Exhibit 21 is a verdict form. Is the Sal Bastone on
13 those documents the Sal Bastone that you've been
14 referring to throughout your testimony?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 MR. BOSTWICK: I'd move admission of those.
17 I'm think we've stipulated to them, Sherman.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think you have.
20 (GEB Attorney's Exhibit Number 20 and 21
21 admitted into evidence)
22 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Now let me clarify --
23 MR. CARMELL: What's the date of the verdict?
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: The date of the verdict.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm looking down here to
2 see what it is.
3 MR. BOSTWICK: Well it's case Number 86. So
4 it's a 1986 case.
5 MR. CARMELL: Okay. That's what I want to
6 know, the time range.
7 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Let me ask you to clarify,
8 Mr. Corbitt. You've never provided testimony -- sworn
9 testimony for the Federal Government. Is that correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Why are you doing this now?
12 A. I have three reason why I'm doing this. We
13 discussed one already. In 1980, Joe Testa was being
14 extorted by the same people that I'd been around all my
15 life. I went to them and tried to get the problem
16 resolved. They blew him up. They couldn't even kill
17 him with any dignity. He suffered for three days. He
18 died three days after the explosion.
19 When I came to prison, I had a three-year-old
20 son from my third marriage who was diagnosed with major
21 illnesses. He's Down syndrome. He's got heart
22 problems, he's got thyroid problems, he's got kidney
23 problems. And Salvatore Bastone, my child's godfather
24 and my best friend, in this past ten years has not
25 visited him, a birthday card, a Christmas card, one ball
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
116
1 game. He hasn't seen him in ten years.
2 Also, in 1987 when I was arraigned on my
3 indictment, my first indictment, I was called to meet
4 with two gentlemen that I knew for a period of years
5 previous to my indictment, both FBI agents,
6 Jack O'Rourke and Robert Pecoraro.
7 They met me in a restaurant and explained to
8 me that in an overhear, a Title 3 overhear, after they
9 had cleared it with their bosses, they brought me
10 information that since my indictment certain members of
11 people that I've been around all my life decided I would
12 be the better for them if I was dead. And somebody
14 So I had to move out of my home, leave my
15 family for the entire time before I went to trial
16 because I did not want them to be involved in any kind
17 of situation that might happen to me.
18 Subsequent to that, two years after I was
19 already in the FCC and doing time on my first case, I
20 ran into the gentleman that was suppose to kill me and
21 he explained the entire story and who ordered it. He
22 later took his own life.
24 A. Gerry Scarpelli.
25 MR. BOSTWICK: I don't have anything further.
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1 THE HEARING OFFICER: How come there a hit out
2 for you?
3 THE WITNESS: They were afraid that I was
4 going to roll over on my indictment.
6 BY MR CARMELL:
7 Q. Let's begin with the three reasons why you say
8 you're here.
9 MR. GRIFFITH: Excuse me. Can I interrupt for
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, sir.
12 MR. GRIFFITH: Bruno has said that the wants
13 to talk to Sherman before the cross-examination starts.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who does, sir?
15 MR. BOSTWICK: Can you say that again?
16 MR. GRIFFITH: Bruno Caruso has asked to talk
17 to his attorney, Mr. Carmell, before the
19 MR. BOSTWICK: What we can do, if we pick the
20 phone up and take it off speaker, and, Joe, if you take
21 it off the pad, they can talk on this phone and we'll
22 exit the room.
23 (Recess from 12:20 p. m. to 12:35 p. m.)
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: We're going to go back
25 on the record now and Sherman Carmell is going to
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
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1 cross-exam.
2 Okay. Go ahead, Sherman.
3 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) One reason that you are
4 testifying here is because in 1980 your good friend
5 Testa was, as you put it, was killed by the people you
6 had worked with. Is that right?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. That happened in 1980 and you continued to
9 work for these people all the way up until the day you
10 went to jail in 1987. Is that correct?
12 Q. So you were not conscience stricken in 1980 by
13 Testa, were you?
15 Q. Only sometime after being in the federal
16 prison did you get your conscience stricken. Is that
17 fair?
18 A. You can say that's fair.
19 Q. About how long ago did your conscience first
20 strike you concerning Mr. Testa's death?
21 A. Maybe ten years ago.
22 Q. And ten years ago did you begin giving
23 statements to any federal officials concerning what you
24 know or knew about organized crime?
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1 Q. When is the first time that you gave -- and
2 I'm not using these LIUNA people as federal officials.
3 I'm talking about the Department of Justice, FBI.
4 When is the first time you ever told any
5 federal official about matters which you have testified
8 Q. Yeah.
9 A. In 1987, early, I attempted, attempted, to
10 debrief for the federal people, you're talking about.
11 They didn't want to hear it.
12 Q. At that time they didn't want to hear it
13 because they believed you were a liar, didn't they?
14 A. No. I think that they thought that I was a
15 big fish, which I wasn't really.
16 Q. You're saying that the federal officials
17 wouldn't listen to anything you had to say concerning
20 Q. And was that Mr. Scorza?
21 A. Absolutely.
22 Q. He was the one who prosecuted you in one of
23 the RICCO cases. Is that right?
24 A. All of my cases.
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 Now Mr. Testa's death. How much did you
2 inherit?
3 A. About eight hundred thousand dollars.
4 Q. The day before Mr. Testa died, you had a
5 conversation about your coming down to Florida to be
6 with him. Is that right?
8 Q. You didn't go down to Florida, did you?
10 Q. If you had gone down to Florida, you might
11 very well have been in the same position that Mr. Testa
12 was when he was blown up. Is that right?
13 A. It may have happened, yes.
14 Q. And you wouldn't have inherited the eight
15 hundred thousand dollars under those circumstances,
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. So that you have a telephone conversation with
19 him where you're suppose to go down. You don't go down.
20 The next day he's blown up and you inherit eight hundred
21 thousand dollars. Is that a fair chronology?
22 A. That's a fair chronology, yes, sir.
23 Q. Using your reasoning about being in places and
24 knowing people, do you think a reasonable person might
25 begin to think that you had something to do with
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
2 A. I'm not really concerned what they think.
3 Q. All right. No let's go to the second reason,
4 your three-year-old son. And in that respect, sir, I
5 offer my sympathies.
6 Mr. Bastone never came to see him, and that
7 was one of the reasons why you're testifying here. Is
8 that correct?
9 A. No, it's a lot more than that. I mean, it's a
10 lot more than he never came to see him.
11 Q. Well he never did anything with respect to --
12 A. Anything, zero. That's more like it.
14 A. Was his godfather.
15 Q. For what period of time did Mr. Bastone not do
16 anything for him? I mean, when did that begin?
17 A. When I came to prison.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Didn't Mr. Bastone go to prison, according to
21 what I can see was GEB 20 and 21, sometime after 1986?
22 A. No. He was given home confinement for one
23 year. He never went to prison.
24 Q. I see. When did you decide that Mr. Bastone's
25 failure to do anything for your son was a reason for you
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1 to give this testimony?
2 A. You know, if I may elaborate a little bit.
3 Mr. Bastone's -- this is only a part of a reason, sort
4 of a catharsis, so to speak. And you have to
5 understand, I didn't seek out LIUNA or any of these
6 people and say I want to talk, I want to give you a
7 statement.
8 I was sought out by their investigators who
9 found me through whatever course they found me. I
10 didn't raise my hand, I didn't say I want to testify.
11 They found me, asked me questions and I told them the
13 Q. All I know is what you've testified to here,
14 and you said there were three reasons and I'm on the
15 second reason.
16 When did it occur to you that Mr. Bastone's
17 not doing anything for your son that you should testify
18 for LIUNA in these matters?
19 A. You can say that it was just like a consensus
20 that I made when I asked myself the question why am I
21 doing this.
22 Q. Now let's go to the third reason. Sometime in
23 1987 O'Rourke and Pecoraro told you of overhearing a
24 death threat about you. Is that right?
25 A. That's correct.
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1 Q. Did they play the wire intercept for you?
3 Q. This was at the time when you were being
4 arraigned in 1987. Is that correct?
5 A. It was when I was arraigned. Several days
6 later.
7 Q. You believed then that the people who you were
8 working with had now turned on you. Is that right?
10 Q. You continued to work for them in 1987, didn't
12 A. I went to jail several months later.
13 Q. Yeah. But you continued all the way up until
14 the day before you went to jail and had your bond
15 revoked, you say you brought thirty-five thousand
16 dollars to Pat Marcy. Is that correct?
18 Q. Right. According to GEB Attorney Exhibit 179,
19 on April 5, 1987, you went to Pat Marcy's home. Is that
20 correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Now using April 5, 1987, had you learned at
23 that time that there was a death threat?
24 A. No. I learned in May.
25 Q. After learning, you made one last trip for
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
2 A. No. Many other trips during that period of
4 Q. Now you're one of the creeps you described,
5 aren't you?
6 A. Yeah, I am. You're right.
7 Q. In your statement about Mr. Testa's death, you
8 lied -- is that correct? -- the one in the newspaper.
10 Q. I believe you said something about you said
11 you said it, and you said what I thought was necessary
12 to say.
13 A. That's true.
14 Q. That's been the story of your life. You say
15 what is necessary to say, don't you?
17 Q. I'm asking you.
18 A. It's your opinion. I'm telling you.
19 Q. I'm asking you: During the course of your
20 life, from the time you were a patrolman didn't you say
21 what you thought was necessary to do for yourself?
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: He's just asking you yes
24 or no.
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125
1 Q. From the time you became a patrolman in
2 Willow Springs, you began accepting bribes. Is that
3 right?
5 Q. You've been corrupt since from the day you
6 became a patrolman until the day you went into the
7 federal penitentiary. Is that correct?
9 Q. One of the reasons you went to the federal
10 penitentiary involved the killing of Diane Masters. Is
11 that correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. You were convicted of having covered up the
14 killing by having her body in a Cadillac dumped into a
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Did you, in fact, dump Diane Master's body and
18 car in the canal?
20 Q. How much did you get paid to do that?
22 Q. At the trial, did you plead guilty or not
23 guilty concerning that charge?
24 A. I wasn't charged like that. I was charged in
25 a racketeering conspiracy. That was a predicate act. I
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126
1 plead not guilty to the entire indictment.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now one of the other convictions was for
5 obstruction of justice in falsifying a record. Isn't
6 that correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. You falsified a Hertz rental receipt. Is that
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. That was in order to have an albi with respect
12 to an extortion charge. Is that correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. So you did what you had to do to try and save
15 yourself from an extortion charge.
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Have you ever given statements or any written
18 statements concerning the matters you testified to here
19 to any federal official?
20 A. Rephrase that again. Have I what?
21 Q. Given any written statements. Was there 302s
22 or any notes that a federal official might have taken of
23 any matter that you've give?
24 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me --
25 MR. CARMELL: Let me back up. Let me rephrase
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2 MR. BOSTWICK: He doesn't write the 302s,
4 Let me interpose another comment as well. I'm
5 not sure how much we're at liberty to disclose -- I
6 don't know what he's provided to the FBI or the
7 government, but I'm not sure we're at liberty to
8 disclose what he has or has not. In other words, he's
9 never provided testimony, and he testified to that.
10 MR. CARMELL: Well I think we may have covered
11 that one. He said he attempted once to be debriefed and
12 that was declined.
13 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) So I'm taking from that,
14 Mr. Corbitt, that that's the only time that you had any
15 discussions with federal officials concerning organized
16 crime. Is that a fair statement?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you had them since that time?
19 MR. BOSTWICK: I would interpose an objection,
20 and what I would say on this is, I have not discussed
21 with the FBI what he has or hasn't done and when he's
22 done it. I don't know if it's of importance to them
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well let's put it this
25 way: He can answer the question yes or no.
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1 MR. BOSTWICK: Okay. He's not asking for the
4 MR. CARMELL: I didn't ask him for the
6 A. (CONTINUING) Yes.
7 Q. When was the first time?
9 Q. You're familiar with the El Ruken litigation
10 in the district court?
12 Q. And you testified in federal court concerning
13 favor, dope, everything else that was being used in the
14 NCC involving the El Ruken. Is that correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. During that time the government prosecutors --
17 can I phrase it this way -- questioned your credibility
19 A. No. They never questioned my credibility on
20 the stand. Like refer to somebody. Give me some for
21 instances.
22 Q. Well did Scorza -- did Scorza testify that --
23 was there a question as to whether some of the matters
24 that you testified to had first been raised when you
25 testified, such as talking to Mr. Hogan? That you had
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1 never given any statement about Mr. Hogan's testimony --
2 talking to Mr. Hogan before?
3 A. That's not true.
4 Q. Do you remember that being raised on the
5 stand?
6 A. I remember it being raised, but not by Scorza.
7 I remember it being raised by another attorney, but it
8 later was -- it was resolved.
9 Q. Your being chief of police ended sometime in
10 1981. Is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. When did you first begin being a money
14 A. Nineteen -- mid 1970s, maybe 1973, 1974.
15 Q. And when did you first begin making deliveries
16 of what you considered to be money to Pat Marcy?
18 Q. That's while you were chief of police?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. So during the day when you were
21 Chief of Police of Willow Springs, you were actually not
22 there but out delivering money.
24 Q. You would be down at Counselor's Row during
25 that period of time.
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1 A. Absolutely.
2 Q. How many days a week?
3 A. Three or four days a week.
4 Q. What hours were you there?
5 A. I'd get there -- he got there early in the
6 morning around 6:30 or 7:00. I'd get there at ten, have
7 breakfast, stay an hour or so. If I had any other
8 business to do downtown, I'd do it and then go back.
9 Q. Was that the regular routine, the hours?
10 A. Yeah, approximately the regular routine. If
11 there was something special or something, he'd call me
12 or I'd call him and I'd come into the city.
13 Q. Generally, it was between six a. m. and what
14 time?
16 Q. Now when you were in Counselor's Row, you
17 would be sitting at what's been marked in the exhibit --
18 where is that exhibit. It's somewhere. I can locate
19 it. Okay.
20 You'd be sitting -- this is GEB Attorney
21 Exhibit 168B. The Pat Marcy booth is the one that's
22 been marked as Number 1. Is that correct?
24 Q. You would come to that booth. Would you sit
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1 A. Sometimes. If it was full -- there was only,
2 like, four chairs there -- I would sit over here
3 (indicating) and wait until it was open.
4 Q. And telephone calls would be placed by
5 Mr. Marcy from the phone at the booth. Is that correct?
7 Q. Would he make a lot of telephone calls?
8 A. Yes, he would, and receive a lot.
9 Q. Were the four seats usually always taken?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you always know who the people were who
13 A. A lot of occasions I did, yes.
14 Q. Did you have occasions when you didn't know
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 Q. When somebody wasn't there, you would go to
18 what you have indicated as another booth. Can you point
19 to which one of the booths it was?
20 A. It was booth -- these booths were back
21 further. They weren't right here (indicating).
22 Q. I understand that. We'll get to that, sir.
23 A. Say this booth right here (indicating), which
24 was, like, across from the -- I mean, this table right
25 here, which was across from the second booth.
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1 Q. So what we're looking at -- so it will show --
2 is we have a booth, then we have one table, two tables,
3 three tables, that are closest to the wall that says
6 THE HEARING OFFICER: Right. It says booth
7 Number 1, and then right adjacent to that --
8 THE WITNESS: These tables aren't there
9 (indicating). This would be the first table
10 (indicating).
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Those tables that
13 are there on the illustration are not really there.
14 According, to your testimony, the tables don't start --
15 THE WITNESS: I moved them. They should be
16 back further.
18 THE WITNESS: They're up to close to this area
19 here (indicating). There's a walk-through here, and you
20 couldn't walk through with those tables there.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
22 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) How far away would be the
23 table you would sit at from the booth?
24 A. Fifteen feet.
25 Q. The table you sat at, there were other tables
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1 in front of you?
2 A. No. No. I sat at the first table.
3 Q. Those would be the first table.
4 A. If it was full, yeah, I'd sit someplace else.
5 But most of the time it was open.
6 Q. Well was that table reserved?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So you would just move there if that was an
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. If the table was full, you would just go to
13 A. Yeah, I'd go to another table or a booth
14 across the way or something.
15 Q. And you would sit by yourself.
16 A. No. I usually had people with me or somebody
17 with me or -- sometimes I was by myself but not always.
18 Q. If you had other people with you, what would
19 you do with them while you were waiting?
20 A. Just they'd sit in a booth or they'd sit at
21 the table until I got to see him.
22 Q. If you were sitting with people waiting, you
23 would talk to them?
24 A. Yeah, sure.
25 Q. Socialize with them?
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2 Q. Using this first table as being the first
3 table --
4 A. Okay. All right.
5 Q. -- there are four chairs. Where would you
7 A. You know, at different chairs. I didn't go
8 and sit in the same chair every time. I mean, I -- a
9 different chair, you know, I don't think -- I probably
10 would sit at one of these two chairs (indicating) to see
11 when he was not busy any more so I could get done and
12 leave.
13 Q. But if somebody else was sitting in those two
14 chairs, you had not problem sitting in the chairs --
15 A. No.
16 Q. -- with your back to booth.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Between the first table and the booth, there
19 was a walkway where customers walked, waiters walked,
20 service people walked. Is that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. When you say you would wait for -- or wait to
23 go to the booth, what would you wait, until it was
25 A. I waited until he motioned me, whatever. If
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1 he motioned me, sometimes he would motion me out into
2 the hallway, sometimes he would motion me upstairs. I
3 would wait until he gave me a signal that it was okay
4 and then I would come over.
5 Q. But whatever business you had with Pat Marcy
6 -- and let me try and break it down, sir -- you would
7 discuss it sometimes upstairs in the ward office.
9 Q. You would discuss it sometimes with him in the
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And you would discuss it sometimes at the
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. According to your testimony, with Gus Alex,
16 Pat Marcy would call Gus Alex to let him know that the
17 money was there. Is that correct?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Pat Marcy would call from the booth phone?
21 Q. And sometimes he called in your presence?
23 Q. Did he call in the presence of anyone else?
24 A. I can't recall.
25 Q. And then Gus Alex would come down, you'd meet
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1 him in the parking garage and give him his money.
3 Q. Now with respect to the restaurant called
4 Meo's, what period of time -- I know you've testified to
5 it, but I didn't catch it. What period were you talking
6 about where the Wednesday dinners would occur in the
8 A. Early seventies to the early eighties. '73
9 to, like, '80, '81 -- '80.
10 Q. And on occasion you saw Ernest Kumerow there?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. At that time you knew or learned that he was
13 Tony Accardo's son-in-law?
15 Q. And you also saw Ernie Kumerow with
16 Vince Solano?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And where did you see Ernie Kumerow with
20 A. Downtown at his son's restaurant, Billy's I
21 believe, and I believe at Harry's Cafe, which was also
22 on Rush Street, and I believe Faces.
23 Q. At that time, Vince Solano had some sort of
24 position with the Laborers' Union. Is that right?
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1 Q. Did you know whether Ernie Kumerow had a
2 position with the Laborers' Union at that time?
3 A. I believe -- I knew he was a union official.
4 I don't think I know what union.
5 Q. And you saw Ernest Kumerow with John Serpico?
7 Q. Where did you see Ernie Kumerow with
8 John Serpico?
9 A. Counselor's Row with Pat Marcy on -- also on
10 Rush Street. Also at another restaurant in Chicago,
11 once I saw him, called Maxim's, also on LaSalle Street.
12 Q. Did you know at that time that John Serpico
13 had an affiliation with the Laborers' Union?
15 Q. When you saw Ernie Kumerow with Pat Marcy, at
16 Counselor's Row was one of the places?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Were you present when any conversation between
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. You just saw them there together.
22 A. Yes, together.
23 Q. To your knowledge -- let me qualify your
24 knowledge. To your understanding, did Pat Marcy have
25 anything to do with obtaining work with the city for
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1 various workers?
2 A. I believe he did. I believe he did.
3 Q. Pat Marcy had an affiliation with what was
4 called the First Ward Organization. Is that correct?
6 Q. And that was the Democratic -- Harvey's First
7 Ward.
9 Q. It was your understanding that ward
10 committeemen and aldermen had positions whereby they
11 could influence obtaining jobs for people with the
12 City of Chicago as workers?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. That was called the patronage system.
15 A. Absolutely.
16 Q. When did you first see Bruno Caruso at
17 Counselor's Row?
18 A. Sometime in the mid seventies.
19 Q. Do you have any diary or notebook that would
20 have refreshed your recollection that it occurred over
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you know Bruno Caruso personally?
24 A. No. I knew who he was. I didn't know him
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139
1 Q. When you saw him at Counselor's Row in 19 --
2 as you say, in 1973, did you know what position he had,
3 if any, with the Laborers' Union?
5 Q. Did you know whether he worked for the
6 City of Chicago?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Did you know what his job was?
10 Q. When was the last time that you had seen
11 Bruno Caruso at Counselor's Row?
12 A. I can't recall that. It would have been
13 sometime in the late seventies, early eighties. No. It
14 would have probably -- let's see. No. I think it would
15 have been sometime in the early eighties.
16 Q. You say you saw Bruno Caruso because he hung
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Rush Street was at that time a very social
20 area.
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And there was nothing necessarily sinister
23 about somebody hanging around Rush Street.
25 Q. Now you say you saw him, Bruno Caruso, with
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1 Angelo LaPietra. Is that right?
3 Q. You said you saw him at Faces.
5 Q. Who was Mr. Caruso with besides
6 Angelo LaPietra?
7 A. I can't recall who else was with him.
8 Q. What time of the day or night was it?
9 A. It was about eleven or twelve o'clock at
10 night. I know it was after dark. About eleven o'clock.
11 Q. Did you go over and speak to him?
12 A. No, I did not.
13 Q. Where were they sitting?
14 A. Most of the time they sit at the bar. They
15 had a -- there was an area at the bar where all the guys
16 hung out. It was on the corner of the bar. There was
17 booths all around it, but most of the guys hung around
19 Q. I want to ask you: Could you be confusing
20 Bruno Caruso with Frank Caruso?
21 A. No, absolutely not.
22 Q. Did you see Frank Caruso at Faces?
23 A. I also saw Frank Caruso there also.
24 Q. You saw Bruno Caruso in an area of the bar
25 where a group hung out. Is that right?
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1 A. Yes, where a lot of guys hung out. A lot guys
2 stayed there and talked and --
3 Q. So it wasn't the one-on-one table between
4 Angelo LaPietra and Bruno Caruso.
5 A. No. No.
6 Q. There was a group of guys there.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Did you know all the guys?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. Who told you that the person that you saw at
11 Counselor's Row was Bruno Caruso?
12 A. I knew Bruno Caruso from being introduced to
13 him, from being told who he was on other occasions at
14 other locations.
15 Q. When did you first personally meet
17 A. Personally meet, like shake hands and --
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. I don't believe that ever took place. I
20 believe somebody pointed him out, said who he was,
21 that's Bruno Caruso, that's -- I don't believe that ever
22 happened.
23 Q. You also testified that you saw Bruno Caruso
24 with Angelo LaPietra at Sweetwater's.
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1 Q. Under what circumstances would that have been?
2 A. They were sitting at table with a couple of
3 other guys. I came in there with a couple of people.
4 They were sitting at a window table. I sat several
5 tables away, recognized him. I just recall recognizing
7 Q. Did you recognize who the other persons were?
8 A. No. No.
9 Q. When did you see Bruno Caruso with Al Pilotto?
10 A. Sometime in the early eighties, '81 or '82.
11 Q. Where did you see them?
12 A. It was a golf outing, someplace out south in
13 the Heights. I can't remember the name of the golf
14 course. It was a political golf outing and I saw them
15 both there. After the golf game, everybody came in for
16 dinner, whatever, and he was inside with them.
17 Q. Inside with him in what sense?
18 A. Inside one of the tents or in one of the areas
19 where they were eating. They were sitting together
20 eating and talking.
21 Q. Were there other people at that table?
23 Q. It was a large political outing, golf outing?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where did you see Bruno Caruso with
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1 Vince Solano?
2 A. I believe in the Rush Street area.
3 Q. Under what circumstances?
4 A. In one of the clubs.
5 Q. Do you remember the name of the club?
6 A. It could have been Billy's or it could have
7 been Adolph's. It was a restaurant, not a lounge.
8 Q. Who was he with? I mean, Bruno Caruso was
9 with Vince Solano and --
10 A. They were together. There was only -- I think
11 Vince Solano's son might have been at the table also.
12 Q. You've already testified concerning that you
13 understood that Vince Solano had a position with the
14 Laborers' Union. Let me ask you about Al Pilotto. Was
15 it your understanding that Al Pilotto had a position
16 with the Laborers' Union?
17 A. I knew he was a union official. I didn't know
18 what union.
19 Q. Now you said that while you were at
20 Counselor's Row you saw Bruno Caruso on more than one
21 occasion give Pat Marcy an envelope. Is that correct?
23 Q. Did he hand him the envelope across the table?
24 A. No.
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1 A. He slid it across the table, and Mr. Marcy
2 reached out and grabbed it and slid it off the table and
3 into his pocket.
4 Q. And where were you sitting?
5 A. I believe at this first table, and I believe
6 that Bruno was sitting here and Pat Marcy was sitting
7 there (indicating).
8 Q. So you were sitting at the first table. Where
9 at the first table?
10 A. Right here, facing their table (indicating).
11 Q. You say you're facing their table. Okay. So
12 by looking at it, it would be the chair that is the
13 farthest from the wall. Is that correct?
14 A. Correct.
16 A. Correct.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Facing their booth?
18 MR. CARMELL: Facing their booth.
19 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) Who else was at the table?
20 A. They were there together alone.
21 Q. No, no, no.
23 Q. Yeah, your table.
24 A. I don't believe anybody was there.
25 Q. They were -- what was the distance between
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145
1 your chair and where Mr. Caruso was seated?
2 A. Maybe fifteen feet, twenty feet.
3 Q. You had to look across this passageway where
4 people were coming and traffic was going back and forth.
5 Is that correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. You saw, according to your testimony, Caruso
8 slide an envelope across the table.
10 Q. You saw Marcy take that envelope and put it in
11 his pocket.
13 Q. Anybody sitting in that room could have seen
14 the same thing.
16 Q. Well anybody sitting in your position could
17 have seen the same thing. Right?
19 Q. Anybody standing and walking by the passageway
20 could have seen the same thing. Right?
21 A. Yeah, but not anybody in the room. You said
22 anybody in the room could have seen it.
23 Q. Well anybody at the table next to you could
25 A. Possibly.
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146
1 Q. Anybody in the booth next to you could have
3 A. It possible. It's possible.
4 Q. Yeah. So in open view, Caruso slides an
5 envelope across the table. Is that right?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. How many times did you see this happen?
8 A. Several occasions. Two.
9 Q. Two occasions. Okay. You've testified as to
11 Now on the other occasion, where were you?
12 A. I think I was at the same booth -- I mean, the
13 same table.
14 Q. The same table so the same scenario?
15 A. There may have been somebody else at the table
17 Q. Where was that person sitting?
18 A. Probably on this end over here (indicating).
19 Q. And we're talking about at the Booth Number 1,
20 the Marcy booth.
22 Q. So on the second occasion -- on another
23 occasion there may have been another person at the Marcy
24 table.
25 A. That's correct.
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1 Q. Do you know who that person might have been?
3 Q. When in terms of years did you see the first
4 envelope go across the table?
5 A. Sometime in the mid seventies.
6 Q. How about the second time?
7 A. Sometime shortly thereafter, maybe '77, '78.
8 Q. Now how many times did you see -- well let me
10 You saw Bruno Caruso and the envelope issue
11 twice that you recall. Is that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. How many times in total did you see
14 Bruno Caruso at Counselor's Row?
15 A. Maybe six, seven times total.
16 Q. Was he always at the Marcy booth?
17 A. Yes, he was.
18 Q. At any time were you at the Marcy booth when
21 Q. Were there times when Mr. Caruso was there
22 with others at the Marcy booth?
24 Q. Did you recognize any of the other persons?
25 A. Several of the occasions John D'Arco was
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 there. But other than that, there was -- occasionally
2 Barney Stone, the Alderman, was there. Occasionally
3 Burton Natarus was there, the other alderman.
4 Q. For those of those who are not into Chicago
5 politicians, that was John D'Arco, Senior?
7 Q. And John D'Arco, Senior, was the head of the
8 First Ward Organization.
10 Q. Committeeman. Ward committeeman.
11 A. Former alderman.
12 Q. Bernard Stone was an Alderman of the 50th
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Burton Natarus was an alderman of one of the
16 wards of the City of Chicago.
17 A. 43rd, I think. I'm not sure.
18 Q. Was there anyone else that you recall knowing
19 who was there at the booth when Bruno Caruso was
20 there?
21 A. No, not that I can recall.
22 Q. When you would sit with Pat Marcy, who else
23 would sit with you an Mr. Marcy?
24 A. Fred Roti, Ernest Stone, Tony Tisce.
25 Q. Let's stop for a minute. Who was Tony Tisce?
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1 A. I think he still is Sam Giancanna's
2 son-in-law. He'a married to Bonnie Lee Giancanna. He's
3 a former -- he's an attorney.
4 I mean, I can go on and on. A bunch of
5 different people run through there. If you want me to
6 keep going, I mean --
7 Q. Did you discuss the business that you had with
8 Mr. Marcy with these people around?
9 A. No. No.
10 Q. Well when you were there, what would be talked
12 A. Politics, the weather, sports.
13 MR. BOSTWICK: Excuse me. Are you talking
14 about while you're at the booth with these other people?
15 THE DEPONENT: Right.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: These other people.
17 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) Fred Roti you're talking
18 about. He was the Alderman from the First Ward, wasn't
19 he?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Now you mentioned John Monteleone. John
22 Monteleone went to jail, didn't he?
23 A. I'm not sure. He may have, but I'm not sure
24 if he did. I don't think he's in jail now. I don't
25 think he was in jail when I came in. I know he wasn't.
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150
1 Q. You say you saw Bruno Caruso with
2 John Monteleone in the late sixties or early seventies.
4 A. Early seventies, maybe the late sixties. But
5 early seventies and late seventies also.
6 Q. You saw him at Harry's Cafe on Rush Street.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. What is it that makes you remember over thirty
9 years ago that Bruno Caruso was at Harry's Cafe on
10 Rush Street?
11 A. Because I was doing business with one of
12 Johnny Monteleone's people on the street, and I went
13 over and had an discussion with him in regards to that
14 business transaction and I knew that Bruno was with
15 them. They were sitting together. I believe there were
16 several people with them and they were sitting together
18 Q. You had transactions with Mr. Monteleone on
19 more than one time, didn't you?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Over what period of time did you have your
22 transactions with him?
23 A. Early seventies until the early eighties.
24 Q. How many times would you have a transaction
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151
1 A. A hundred. Transactions or --
2 Q. Transactions.
3 A. A hundred maybe.
4 Q. How many at Harry's Cafe?
6 Q. That one time was the one time you recall
7 Bruno Caruso being there.
9 Q. He was with him and other people were with
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Did you know who the other people were?
13 A. I don't recall. I believe one of them was an
14 attorney. I'm trying to think right now. I can't
15 remember his name, but I think one of them is an
17 Q. To your knowledge, did John Monteleone have
18 any business or profession?
19 A. You mean business or --
20 Q. Yeah, like Testa did. Testa had a business.
21 A. You mean like -- are you talking legitimate
23 Q. Let's talk about legitimate business.
24 A. No, I don't know if he had a legitimate
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2 A. I never did any legitimate business with him.
3 Q. You don't know if -- you don't know whether he
5 A. No, do not.
6 Q. When was the first time that anybody from
9 Q. Yes, sir
10 A. Maybe eight or ten months ago, maybe longer.
11 I'd say about ten months ago.
12 Q. Can you fix it any closer than that?
13 A. I could if I wasn't here. I have it in marked
14 down, but I can't --
16 A. I can't do it now.
17 Q. So in order for you to recall whether it was
18 ten or -- ten months ago or less, you'd have to look at
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Do you remember what month it was?
23 Q. Do you remember the season of the year?
24 A. No. There's no season down here. It was
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153
1 Q. Warm, warmer or hot.
3 MR. BOSTWICK: Those are the three seasons?
4 THE WITNESS: That's it. That's it. I don't
5 remember the season.
6 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) Who did you speak to that
7 first time?
8 A. With Jack O'Rourke.
9 Q. That's the same Jack O'Rourke who had told you
10 in '87 that you were the subject of a death threat.
11 Right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. What did Jack O'Rourke tell you? Well excuse
14 me. Let me back up, sir.
15 Did you know that Jack O'Rourke was coming to
18 Q. How did you learn?
19 A. I believe they contacted the prison and asked
20 approval to come in and see me, because you can't come
21 and see me unless you get approval. And I believe I
22 signed off on an approval to see him.
23 Q. Did you discuss that matter with your FBI case
25 A. I don't understand what you're talking about.
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1 Q. Well did the FBI tell you that Jack O'Rourke
3 A. On his first visit?
5 A. I don't believe so. I don't believe so.
6 Q. You learned that a John O'Rourke wanted to
9 Q. Did you learn at the time that -- who
10 John O'Rourke was?
11 A. I already knew who John O'Rourke was.
12 Q. You knew him as an FBI agent.
14 Q. Did you know then that he was no longer with
15 the FBI?
17 Q. How did you find that out?
18 A. I heard that he retired.
19 Q. When you heard that John O'Rourke wanted to
20 see you, you gave permission for John O'Rourke to see
21 you?
23 Q. What did John O'Rourke tell you?
24 A. When he saw me?
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1 A. He told me that he was working for -- no. He
2 told that he was doing an investigation of a union and
3 would I be able to help in any way as far as if I had
4 any knowledge of any people.
5 Then he proceeded to give me a whole mired of
6 people, asked if I knew them, if I didn't know them,
7 what I knew about them, so forth and so on. Some people
8 I knew; some people I didn't know.
9 Q. Did he show you pictures?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did some of these pictures refresh your
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did Mr. O'Rourke refresh your recollection as
15 to who certain people were?
16 A. No. You mean as to who the people were in the
18 Q. Yes.
20 Q. Did Mr. O'Rourke ask you specifically certain
21 names, such as -- let me ask you this: Did he ask you
22 specifically whether you knew Bruno Caruso?
24 Q. Did he ask you specifically whether you knew
25 Frank Caruso?
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did he ask you specifically whether you knew
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did he ask you whether you knew Vince Solano?
6 A. Yes.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When was the next time that you -- and how
10 long did that first meeting take?
12 Q. When was it that you first were informed that
13 your cooperation would be presented to the sentencing
14 judge with respect to shortening your sentence?
15 A. I think several months ago I had that
16 conversation with Mr. Dwight Bostwick after there had
17 been several trips down here.
18 MR. BOSTWICK: For the record, what was
19 testified on direct was that he would consider doing
20 that, not that he would.
21 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) How many times did you see
23 A. Approximately four times over the period of
24 this -- maybe four times.
25 Q. Did Mr. O'Rourke take notes of his
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157
2 A. I believe he did.
3 Q. Did he show you the notes?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Has he discussed his notes with you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Over what period of time did -- the total
8 number of hours that you spent with Mr. O'Rourke?
9 A. Maybe twelve, fourteen hours, maybe sixteen.
10 At the most, it would be sixteen hours total.
11 Q. In order to find out about the pecking order
12 of organized crime, you had to be in there. Is that
13 right?
15 Q. As you said right from the beginning, you
16 would not know who was -- quote -- a made member or an
17 associate even though you spent years and years and
18 years with organized crime people. Is that right?
20 Q. Is it fair to say that it was a very secretive
21 group?
23 Q. Attempted to be. Okay. They talk a lot, but
24 they try to talk a lot only with people they trusted.
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158
2 Q. You knew that Al Pilotto was in organized
3 crime because you had dealings with him. Is that right?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Is there any other basis upon which you knew
6 that Al Pilotto was in organized crime?
7 A. Only in who he associated with and who he was
9 Q. In order to be around them, you had to be, if
10 not part of organized crime, you at least had to be
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. An outsider wouldn't be in that position,
16 Q. And the same would be true of all of these
17 people that we have mentioned. I'm talking about the
18 -- Sam Giancanna. Is that correct?
20 Q. The same would be true of Vince Solano. Is
21 that correct?
23 Q. The same would be true of Pat Marcy?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. The same would be true of Jimmy Caporale?
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159
1 A. I mean, what would be true?
2 Q. (BY MR. CARMELL) You saw him, as I
3 understand, pass -- give an envelope to or on behalf of
4 Tony Accardo at Meo's Restaurant.
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. In order to get in there, you had to be very
7 trusted.
9 Q. So an outsider would not have known that.
11 Q. With respect to Ernie Kumerow, and outsider
12 could know that he was Tony Accardo's son-in-law. That
13 was no secret. Right?
15 Q. You said that Pat Marcy was paranoid. That
16 means that he -- do I understand correctly, that he was
17 worried, very worried, about the government overhearing
18 anything that he might be doing that's illegal.
19 A. I would say that's a fair statement.
20 Q. He had his phones swept. Correct?
21 A. (Indicating affirmatively).
22 Q. You're nodding. That doesn't --
24 Q. Okay. And he was very, very careful about
25 anything that he feared would be subject to the
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160
1 government seeing or hearing. Is that right?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. You brought money to Pat Marcy on a number of
5 A. Yes, sir.
7 A. Sometimes in packages, sometimes in
8 briefcases, sometimes in bags, sometimes in boxes.
9 Q. The briefcases is where you would exchange
10 briefcases with him.
12 Q. If Mr. Marcy was paranoid, he would not make
13 the exchanges of the briefcases at the booth, he would
14 go out into the hall. Is that correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Have you collected your inheritance from
17 Mr. Testa?
19 Q. Do you know the date of the will?
20 A. When it was read?
21 Q. No. The date that it was made.
22 A. The date it was made? No.
23 MR. CARMELL: May I have just a minute.
24 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you want to just take
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161
1 MR. CARMELL: Yeah. That would be better.
2 (Recess from 1:30 p. m. to 1:40 p. m.)
3 EXAMINATION CONTINUED
4 BY MR. BOSTWICK
5 Q. Mr. Corbitt, you testified about a number of
6 dates during your testimony from the sixties through
7 1987. Unless you've given us a specific day or date,
8 are these dates approximations?
9 A. They're all approximations.
10 Q. When you give generalized testimony, for
11 instance, that something happened in the late seventies,
12 it's possible that it could have happened in the early
13 eighties as opposed to the late seventies an vice versa?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Now you testified that you saw
16 Angelo LaPietra with Bruno Caruso and Frank Caruso at
17 various times. Did you know whether Angelo LaPietra
18 held any position in organized crime?
19 A. I knew that he was a boss of a crew, as you
20 call it, the media calls it, whatever, and as I know it.
21 Salvatore Bastone, who was with me for twenty -- over
22 twenty-some years, was part of his operation. At the
23 time -- some of the time that he was with me, this was
24 his boss, this was the guy he would go to.
25 Other people that I was familiar with from my
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1 area, Wayne Bock, Sammy Bills, different guys, were all
2 under the 26th Street crew, as you put it, and this guy
3 was the boss. This guy was the street level boss of
4 that crew. I knew that from experiencing things, being
5 involved with him at social gatherings and being
6 involved with him in what I was doing on the street.
7 Q. Mr. Carmell asked you about a number of the
8 people that you interacted with at Counselor's Row. A
9 number of them were alderman. Alderman John D'Arco,
10 Senior, was he ever indicted, to your knowledge?
11 A. I believe he was. But he wasn't an alderman
12 when I knew him. He was a committeeman.
14 A. He was -- he may have been. I'm not sure. I
15 believe he was indicted at some point.
16 Q. How about Fred Roti?
18 Q. Was indicted?
19 A. Yes, he was.
20 Q. How about Pat Marcy, to your knowledge?
21 A. No. Pat Marcy I don't believe was ever
22 indicted.
23 Q. How about Mr. DeLeo?
24 MR. CARMELL: I don't remember talking about
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 MR. BOSTWICK: Oh, I'm sorry.
2 Q. (BY MR. BOSTWICK) Did you ever see Mr. DeLeo
3 at Counselor's Row on these occasions?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Do you know if he was ever indicted?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. Mr. Carmell also asked you some questions
8 about Jack O'Rourke and his initial interviews with you.
9 Did Mr. O'Rourke mislead you in any way that he was
11 A. No, he didn't.
12 Q. What did he tell you about who he was working
14 A. He told me that he was involved in a private
15 security investigations, Bureau of Business, and they
16 were working for the union.
17 Q. Was there ever any confusion in your mind that
18 he was in the FBI?
20 MR. BOSTWICK: I don't have any further
22 MR. CARMELL: I just have really one.
23 EXAMINATION CONTINUED
24 BY MR. CARMELL:
25 Q. When you say your dates are approximation,
E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 what is the span of error? That is, could it be five
2 years? Ten year?
3 A. No. I would say a year, maybe a
4 year-and-a-half. A couple of years is all it could be.
5 I would say maybe a year-and-a-half to two years
7 MR. CARMELL: That's it.
8 MR. BOSTWICK: I think we're done with that.
9 (Deposition concluded at 2:00 p. m.)
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E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
2 COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH
3 I, ELIZABETH GOTCH, Shorthand Reporter,
Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large:
4
DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing
5 deposition, pages 1 through ______, inclusive, was
taken before me at the time and place stated therein;
6 that I reported said examination and testimony
stenographically, and that the transcript of the
7 deposition constitutes a true and correct transcript of
the shorthand report of said deposition.
I CERTIFY that I am neither related to, nor
9 employed by, any counsel or party to the cause pending,
nor interested in the event thereof.
IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto affixed
11 my hand this 26th day of August, 1997, in Tampa,
Hillsborough County, Florida.
13 _____________________________
ELIZABETH GOTCH
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E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
1 STATE OF FLORIDA
3 I, the undersigned authority, certify that
MICHAEL CORBITT, personally appeared before me and
4 was duly sworn.
5 WITNESS, my hand and official seal this
26th day of August, 1997, in Tampa, Hillsborough County,
7
______________________________
8 ELIZABETH GOTCH
Shorthand Reporter
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E. R. MACK COURT REPORTERS (813) 229-9462
Laborers for JUSTICE ©1998 (All Rights reserved)